Baby Eagle .40 to 10mm conversion

[Zundfolge]

Will a barrel from an EAA Witness Compact work in a Baby Eagle Compact?

I'm thinking it would be fun to get a Baby Eagle Compact in .40 and spend the $100 to buy the 10mm Compact barrel from EAA.

I know I could just buy a Witness Compact, but I like the looks of the Baby Eagle better (yeah, I know its a silly reason).

 

[forquidder]

10mm conversions

Ya know that the 10mm is longer and needs abigger frame and magazine.

 

[Zundfolge]

The frame of the Baby Eagle compact and the Witness compact are the same (In fact I believe they both come off the same assembly line at Tangfolio in Italy). The only real difference between the two is the slide and dust cover (and that may only be external and aesthetic ... hence my question).

I may have to dump the .40 Baby Eagle mags in favor of some 10mm Witness mags as well, but with some guns (like the .40 Para Ordnance and the .40 Mauser M2) all you have to do is remove a spacer from the .40 mag and viola it works with 10mm.

Anyway I'm just wondering if there is any reason the Witness barrel won't just drop into the Baby Eagle.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

EAA uses two general frames sizes: a small frame for 9mm and .40, and a larger frame for .38 special, .45, and 10 mm. (You can get conversion kits for the large-frame Witnesses that let you go to smaller calibers, so a 10mm gun would let you do everything.)

Its unlikely that the barrels would interchange in the manner you are asking about -- and the barrels might be incompatible in other ways, as well -- different locking lugs, length, diameter, etc.

 

[bnolsen]

Going from 10mm to .40 is okay, but the other way around...

Well there's a problem where the 10mm requires longer slide travel, longer mags, and a far stronger slide and frame.

It's not wise to even think about taking a pistol designed for one cartridge and modifying it to fire one that's significantly more powerful.

 

[Pointman1776]

Not sure, haven't tried it myself...but here's an interesting website excerpt:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weap...ho/Jericho.html:

The Jericho 941 was developed by IMI, Israel (Israeli Military Industries). The index "941" comes from initial chambering of this gun, it was shipped with two interchangeable barrels and magazine sets one for 9mm Luger, and another for more powerful .41AE (10mm) cartridge. But .41AE didn't catch the market, so this version was discontinued, but lately IMI introduced Jericho in .40SW and in .45ACP.

 

[Zundfolge]

So are you guys telling me that the EAA Witness compact in 10mm is not the same size as the EAA Witness compact in 9mm?

Having seen both side by side in a display case at a gun shop, they look pretty much identical to me, thats why I thought the Baby Eagle Compact might work (and there are other models of guns available in .40 where conversion to 10mm is as simple as cutting the chamber deeper or swapping barrels).

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Yeah, that's what we're telling you.

We may be wrong, but I don't think so. But it would be nice to know if we are wrong.

The .40 Baby Eagles I've handled seem to use the same frame as the 9mm model. I've never even seen Baby Eagle in a caliber larger than .40. [See later note, below!] And the EAA 10mm guns are definitely based on the larger .45 frame and NOT the 9mm/.40 frame.

What other guns can be adapted to 10mm by simply increasing the chamber size? I'd be curious to know. There aren't THAT many 10mm guns out there -- and every one I'm aware is based on a .45 frame. That's true with the Glock, the EAA 10mm, and several of the 10mm-based 1911 guns.

I don't know of ANY .40 guns that are convertible to 10mm; its an inexpensive conversion from 10mm to .40 -- usually just a barrel. What .40s (convertible to 10mm) were you referring to?

NOTE: just read an interesting post about a Baby Eagle .45 in this same part of THR. Its a compact model. Don't know that this addresses your questions, though.

 

[Zundfolge]

What .40s (convertible to 10mm) were you referring to?

The Para Ordnance P16-40 (and I'd assume any of their .40 guns ... and for that matter any 1911 in .40) can be converted to 10mm by either cutting the chamber deeper or replacing the barrel with a 10mm one. Then you remove the plastic spacers from the magazine and they run 10mm as though they came from the factory that way. Swap out the recoil spring for a heavier one and you're set.

I've seen the .45 Baby Eagle compact, and it is larger then the 9mm compact, however with the Witness the 10mm and 9mm looked the same ... so I figured that the Witness 10mm was built on the same frame as the 9mm. Clearly I could be wrong, I was really hoping someone would respond to my thread with "Yeah, I have one and it worked fine" or "Yeah, I have one, when I tried to put the 10mm barrel in I ran into X, Y and Z problem."

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The Para-Ordnance .40 gun is based on a .45 frame. That's why its adaptable. Most .40s don't have spacers in their mags. (A lot of 9mm 1911s are done the same way -- with mags with spacers. I have one like that.) What you saw, in that case, was a .45 modified to shoot .40, and then adapted to shoot 10mm.

I don't know of any that have the ability to be converted that aren't based on the larger frame.

And the Witness 10mm and the Witness 9mm/40 frames are not the same. Quite a bit of difference.

Maybe someone here will enlighten us both on this point.

 

[MrAcheson]

I've seen the .45 Baby Eagle compact, and it is larger then the 9mm compact, however with the Witness the 10mm and 9mm looked the same ... so I figured that the Witness 10mm was built on the same frame as the 9mm.

Walt is correct. There are two frame sizes for the EAA witness small (9mm/.40) and large (.38 super/.45acp/10mm) just like the Baby Eagle. You can go down but not up.

Secondly... If you noticed the .45acp and the 9mm eagles were different, then where did you get the idea that it would be safe to buld a 10mm baby eagle on the 9mm frame? Even if the witness frames for the two calibers were the same (they aren't), that might mean you could build a 10mm witness on a 9mm frame. Assuming you could do it with a baby eagle is a helluva assumption. You might be able to do it with the .45acp frame if you could get all the parts to work out, but on the smaller 9mm frame? You would probably be building a handgrenade.

 

[Pointman1776]

Check this out...

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/jericho/Jericho.html

Jericho 941 was developed by IMI, Israel. The index "941" comes from initial chambering of this gun, it was shipped with two interchangeable barrels and magazine sets one for 9mm Luger, and another for more powerful .41AE (10mm) cartridge. But .41AE didn't catch the market, so this version was discontinued, but lately IMI introduced Jericho in .40SW and in .45ACP.

The best bet would be to contact IMI or an IMI-specialist, verify 9mm & .41AE and 10mm interchangeability/compatibility, and try to find a factory-made IMI conversion set for the 941, rather than an after-market (if it exists) or attempt a custom conversion with non factory parts (don't even have a clue as to which barrel could possibly be used as a starter base for the conversion).

Good luck!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I don't reload, so I'm not familiar with the dimension of these various rounds, but I do know I have used .41AE mags in my 9mm/.40 guns and it handled both rounds well. (Some of us used them as .40 hi-caps prior to the ban expiring.)

Maybe there's something at play here I don't understand -- very possible, actually -- but I don't think that .41 AE and 10mm have the same length. There's no way I could get a 10mm mag in my .40 guns; I could get the .41 AE mags.

 

[Otony]

Wait, wait, wait. Aside from the two frame size issues (which is correct, BTW, the .40 is built on the 9mm size frame), where did this info about the Mauser M2 come from?

"but with some guns (like the .40 Para Ordnance and the .40 Mauser M2) all you have to do is remove a spacer from the .40 mag and viola it works with 10mm."

Is this true? I know that this it is possible to convert the HK .40 USP to 10mm. Is it also possible with the M2? Something about revolving barrels that I find intriguing, and a 10mm conversion would be very cool.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Well, if there's a spacer, that means the gun in question is built on a larger frame. It looks like all the guns built on a larger frame require a spacer in the mags. We've noted that larger frames are needed for the .40 to 10mm conversion, so there's nothing unusual here.

(I think you'd be better served by getting different mags...)

But in this case I think you'd still have to change the barrel, as the chamber in the .40 barrel wouldn't be long enough to accept the 10mm round.

 

[Otony]

change, or if a replacement barrel is available, just rechamber the exisiting .40 barrel, no?

 

[Zundfolge]

Both the Para Ordnance and Mauser M2 .40 mags are just their .45 mags with plastic spacers in them.

where did this info about the Mauser M2 come from?

If you go here: http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm08.html and scroll down to about 3/4 way down the page to "Jay's Custom Conversion of a Mauser M2 in .40S&W to 10mm!" there are pictures that show the spacer removed.

My brother has a M2 in .45 ... its a tack driver, so I'd love to see one in 10mm as well (wouldn't want to carry the fat little sucker though ... and the safety is just weird)

Walt, the 10mm is 10x25 and the .41 AE is 10x22 (and .45acp is 11.43x23) so it would seem to me that 10mm should fit in a .45acp mag and a frame built for a .45 ... oh, and the .40S&W is 10x21. There's 4mm difference between the 10mm and the .40S&W, so I imagine in some .40s you could fit the 10mm, in others you couldn't (strength issues notwithstanding)
Source

 

[Zundfolge]

Don't know why I didn't look this up before.


According to EAA's web site, all the Witness Compacts are the same size ... that includes the 10mm and the .45acp:
Barrel Length 3.6"
Overall Length 7.3"
Height 4.5"
Width 1.4"

http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/pistols/witness/witnesscompt.shtml

According to Magnum Research's web site the Steel Baby Eagle compact in .40S&W (the MR9400RB) is:
Barrel length 3.64"
Overall length 7 1/4"
Height 5"
Width 1 1/8"

http://www.magnumresearch.com/Baby_Eagle_specs.asp

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Just because the various "compacts" have almost the same dimensions doesn't mean they use the same frame.

The round around which the frame was built dictates whether the gun will accept a 10mm round, or not. If the frame was originally designed around the .45 round, it'll probably accept a 10mm cartridge; if the frame was originally designed around the 9mm/.40 round, it won't.

If you go to the Magnum Research site, at the link above, you'll notice that the 9mm/.40 "compact" Baby Eagles share the same frame, while the .45 is larger. Overall sizes in the two guns aren't that different, however.

Even if you could make a 10mm barrel fit in the .40 version, you wouldn't be able to make the rounds fit in the magazine. I'm sure this is the case with the Witness models, and I'm pretty sure its the case with the 941 Jericho and the Baby Eagle. There's just not enough grip space to handle the 10mm case in the 9mm/.40 based guns.

 

[Grayrider]

To echo Walt here, the Witness compact 10mm/45/38 Super are large frame, the 9mm/40 are small frame. I am suprised this thread went on this long. Tanfoglio makes the two sizes frames and the compact/full designation only affects frame height/length. The mag well and grip diameter is not the same between large and small frame compact models. Thus you cannot convert a 40 to 10mm, as the grip frame is not long enough. There are a number of other differences that also make the slides and barrels incompatable between large and small frame Tanfoglios. One can convert a large frame 10mm to 40 using a special barrel made for the large frame guns. That gives you a higher capacity 40 as the 10mm mags are larger than the small frame 40 mags. It also gives you a 40 with very little recoil as the 10mm large frame guns weigh more and are sprung heavier. I plan to do that as soon as Savvysurvivor gets some more barrels in.

In the IMI line the same frame difference is true. Unfortunately IMI does not make a 10mm large frame gun. A Jericho/Baby Eagle in that caliber would be very nice given the higher quality of the IMI products (Tanfolgio underpinnings not withstanding).

GR

 

[Ash]

THe 41AE is not at all related to the 10mm. The AE is 10mm in diameter like a 40S&W. But, it uses a rebated rim to make the rim the same size as a 9mm rim. In otherwords, the slide for a 41AE is identical to the slide for a 9mm and would have to be milled out to accept a 40S&W, much less a 10mm. The 41AE was, for all practical purposes, the same as the 40S&W. It came out first, but there were issues with extraction with that rebated rim and it lost favor. It was a novel idea, where one could change caliber with just a barrel change, even when the two calibers were not equal diameters. In this case, though, a Jericho chambered for 41AE could be rechambered for 9mm, but nothing else.

Ash

 

[Ash]

IV) Can I convert my 9mm Witness to 45ACP?

A) Steel frame 9mm or 40sw Witness pistols can only be converted to 9mm or 40sw or 22lr
B) Steel frame 38super, 45acp, 10mm can be converted to: 9mm, 40sw, 38super, 45acp, 10mm or 22lr
C) Any Witness P can be converted to 9mm, 40sw, 45acp, 38 super
D) Any Witness PS can be converted to 9mm, 40sw or 22lr
E) Any Witness PC can be converted to 9mm, 40sw or 22lr

From EAA's FAQ site.

http://www.eaacorp.com/faqs/questions.shtml

 

[cidirkona]

My next pistol purchase is already planned for a 45 subcompact ported EAA Witness, and then a 10mm kit for it. I've never shot a 10mm... but with the way LennyJoe talks about them, it seems to be a must-have.

Next rifle is something semi-auto in .308...

-Colin

 

[agtman]

The key to many, if not most, of these proposed 40-to-10mm "conversions" is the magazine - that is, whether the stock .40 mags can accomodate, or be "fixed" to reliably accomodate, the longer COAL of the 10mm. Since most can't, there it ends unless all you want is a single-shot 10mm.

Apparently, the mags for Sig's .40S&W M2 Mauser pistol have a metal spacer or plug which can be removed, making it compatible with holding and feeding 10mm ammo. I wasn't aware of this. (See? You learn something new everyday on THR. )

Once you've got your hands on .40S&W mags that will work, or can be made to work, with the 10mm cartridge, the stock .40 barrel needs to be reamed out to 10mm specs. This is relatively easy and any competent 'smith should be able to do it.

The "10mm" HK.

Yep, it's been done, apparently. A couple of years ago on pistolsmith.com, a poster from Alaska described how he "converted" a full-size HK .40 to 10mm. Same basic process. He started with the mag. HK uses a dedicated .40 mag without a spacer, so the 10mm cartridge won't fit and the mag can't be readily altered. End of story, right? Nope. The poster was in a gunshop one day with his HK and got creative, experimenting with various mags from different gunmakers to see whether their .40 mags might fit in his HK .40.

Bingo! He discovered that a hi-cap .40 Para-Ord mag (which will also hold and feed the 10mm cartridge) fit nearly perfectly in the mag well/chute of his HK. He had to cut a mag catch opening on the off-side of the Para-Ord .40 mag to get it to lock-in tight with the HK's mag-catch latch, but apparently that wasn't a big deal. He was able to get several Para .40 mags working reliably in the gun. Next, he had the barrel reamed out to 10mm. Then he put stronger Wolff recoil and firing pin springs in the gun, and was soon out shooting hot 10mm loads. I recall he commented that his "10mm" HK shot perfectly to point-of-aim with the factory sights.

If you're interested in more details, you might do a search on the Pistolsmith sight, as it was discussed there more than once. In fact, IIRC, several posters have tried this conversion.

Good luck.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Your original point is true, but I'd argue you've got the cart before the horse...

As several of us noted previously, the key is NOT the magazine, but a grip frame large enough to accomodate a magazine that will handle the longer 10mm round.

The only guns mentioned, thus far, that can be converted from .40 to 10mm are guns that were originally developed as .45s. That's true of the Witness line, that's certainly true of the Para-Ordnance guns. I'm not familiar with the H&K, but suspect its true of that gun, too. (If the mag has a spacer, its got a spacer because the mag was originally designed for a larger cartridge; you don't find many 9mm guns with spacers in them -- unless its for a 1911.)

The guns designed to shoot .45 rounds typically are more robust than the guns designed to shoot 9mm/.40 S&W -- and I'd argue that just converting a gun to 10mm 'cause you could (by swapping or modifying barrels) wouldn't necessarily be smart or safe. The 10mm round is pretty hot, and in a frame that wasn't designed to handle it, it could be tough on the frame and the shooter.