Maverick223
Member
You pistol lovin' ruffians git on outta here...this here's a rifle forum! 
Backpacking gun, .308 or heavier?
- Thread starter Cryogaijin
- Start date
- Status
1stmarine
Member
Panzercat,
You are right that round is ideal for an AR with a 20" barrel and 1:8 rate of twist as recommended by Barnes who is the manufacturer but it doesn't perform too bad in the keltec.
Any TSX bullet makes a very distinctive and consistent wound. It is almost like if you run a 3/4" drill inside the animal all the way through. The round will take out deer, caribou and many other animals w/o problems and I would suggest w/o going beyond the 200 yards for certain size game. Definitely a deadly shot as soon as you hit lung, artery, heart and the obvious with that one is the spinal cord just below the neck in any size animal (neck shot). A good shooter with that round will have meat secured for the rest of his/her days. The accuracy of the keltec is around 1MOA and better, in line with some good ARs so that counts to have surgical shot placement. The secret of the higher grain hunting bullets is that will perform better and will retain energy for longer range. It is not as flat as the higher speed 55gr but the difference is marginal compared to the substantial increase in terminal effectiveness.
If the objective was a large game or bear ONLY the system I would rather much to have is the .308 with a 168 or 180 TSX bullet but again the .223 is not relegated to the traditional 55 or 62gr small varmint soft points as some might think.
Make sure the state and local regulations allow hunting with the .224 bullet diameter, sometimes the only "true" limitation of the round.
Example Target from my first and oldest keltec su-16CA....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL-liPFY5-I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5823tVJtMFE
A great neck shot...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hLBsNuriSA&NR=1&feature=fvwp
You are right that round is ideal for an AR with a 20" barrel and 1:8 rate of twist as recommended by Barnes who is the manufacturer but it doesn't perform too bad in the keltec.
Any TSX bullet makes a very distinctive and consistent wound. It is almost like if you run a 3/4" drill inside the animal all the way through. The round will take out deer, caribou and many other animals w/o problems and I would suggest w/o going beyond the 200 yards for certain size game. Definitely a deadly shot as soon as you hit lung, artery, heart and the obvious with that one is the spinal cord just below the neck in any size animal (neck shot). A good shooter with that round will have meat secured for the rest of his/her days. The accuracy of the keltec is around 1MOA and better, in line with some good ARs so that counts to have surgical shot placement. The secret of the higher grain hunting bullets is that will perform better and will retain energy for longer range. It is not as flat as the higher speed 55gr but the difference is marginal compared to the substantial increase in terminal effectiveness.
If the objective was a large game or bear ONLY the system I would rather much to have is the .308 with a 168 or 180 TSX bullet but again the .223 is not relegated to the traditional 55 or 62gr small varmint soft points as some might think.
Make sure the state and local regulations allow hunting with the .224 bullet diameter, sometimes the only "true" limitation of the round.
Example Target from my first and oldest keltec su-16CA....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL-liPFY5-I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5823tVJtMFE
A great neck shot...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hLBsNuriSA&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Last edited:
1stmarine
Member
Cryogaijin,
I don't know why I said Inuit. I don't know much about native American and tribal culture in that region so I apologize for any misunderstanding.
I don't know why I said Inuit. I don't know much about native American and tribal culture in that region so I apologize for any misunderstanding.
You guys recommending small calibers like 223...you do know the OP lives in AK??? There are some very large critters in AK that can/will kill you. I don't care if you can carry a beta with your AR15...I want a larger caliber. LOL
45/70
458Socom
450Bushmaster
50Beowulf
12ga
I love my RFB, but I wouldn't take it to AK knowing I could encounter a grizzly in my travels.
ETA: My RFB with 1-4x optic/mount with 20rd mag weighs in at 11.4lbs.
45/70
458Socom
450Bushmaster
50Beowulf
12ga
I love my RFB, but I wouldn't take it to AK knowing I could encounter a grizzly in my travels.
ETA: My RFB with 1-4x optic/mount with 20rd mag weighs in at 11.4lbs.
Cryogaijin
Member
No worries. Doesn't offend me at all. However, as I've posted in other threads, I work in hospitality up here, and one of my duties in the industry is education.
The whole Inuit thing is PC taken too far and essentially telling people "Oh no, you aren't Eskimo, you're Inuit! Esquimaux is a french term, Inuit is a First Nations term!! (even though it is a totally different branch which you aren't actually related to!)"
Essentially it is like calling a Crow indian "Iroquois"
.308 and 30-06 is a perfectly decent bear gun. Shot placement (after a point; bullet needs to be heavy/fast enough to go through some bone) is more important than weight. But yeah, every single .223 rec goes in the circular file. Shotgun recs are useful. . . I'd honestly love to find a good lightweight Ithaca Deerslayer. . .
Of course shot placement is very important, but under stress, will you be at to concentrate when you have a charging grizzly? I don't know how to duplicate/practice at taking such a shot without having a dangerous animal coming towards me.
We have bear in PA, but they aren't nearly the size they are in the NW states.
We have bear in PA, but they aren't nearly the size they are in the NW states.
Old Time Hunter
Member
As some one said earlier....the Co-Pilot from Wild West Guns fits the bill for everything you require.
1stmarine
Member
aubie515,
99.9% of the time you will be looking for a grizzle and not the grizzle looking for you.
For other purposes if you do not trust yourself with good placement and/or the load is inadequate then do not try it in any living animal. That would be unethical.
An accurate system, a good round and training takes care of that.
Panzercat,
If it bothers you I will take it out. so funny! I just wanted to show that it is in line with some ARs and it is a perfect gun for a backpack.
Cryogaijin,
IF you are after a grisly get a 308 at a minimum and consider mid range shots. I don't want to be in close quarters with a big one. If so then have a reliable 40/70 marlin with the 7 good hunting loads ready and hopefully not alone. The keltecs are what they are.
In any case do not underestimate a good .223 hunting load o carry in the woods (if the law allows it). These are very different today from the typical 55gr. loads.
For many years the Winchester Model 1873 with the 44-40 cartridge was the primary deer/game rifle until things started to escalate to the levels we have today.
Don't gear up for a huge system unless you really need it or unless you need to kill a deer twice or three times with the same bullet.
There are many good options but not so many that fit in a backup or are just too heavy.
Cheers,
E.
99.9% of the time you will be looking for a grizzle and not the grizzle looking for you.
For other purposes if you do not trust yourself with good placement and/or the load is inadequate then do not try it in any living animal. That would be unethical.
An accurate system, a good round and training takes care of that.
Panzercat,
If it bothers you I will take it out. so funny! I just wanted to show that it is in line with some ARs and it is a perfect gun for a backpack.
Cryogaijin,
IF you are after a grisly get a 308 at a minimum and consider mid range shots. I don't want to be in close quarters with a big one. If so then have a reliable 40/70 marlin with the 7 good hunting loads ready and hopefully not alone. The keltecs are what they are.
In any case do not underestimate a good .223 hunting load o carry in the woods (if the law allows it). These are very different today from the typical 55gr. loads.
For many years the Winchester Model 1873 with the 44-40 cartridge was the primary deer/game rifle until things started to escalate to the levels we have today.
Don't gear up for a huge system unless you really need it or unless you need to kill a deer twice or three times with the same bullet.
There are many good options but not so many that fit in a backup or are just too heavy.
Cheers,
E.
Justin Holder
Member
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2010
- Messages
- 484
This sounds about right.
1stmarine
Member
Justin Holder,
That is the browning right? I forgot the model.
If in my purpose had bear in the list then forget the keltec and I would rather have a lever or a pump. Some folks like a quick bolt with a reliable case choice and that is ok too.
Cannot afford to have any "modern" system jam in the middle of a close encounter.
If I had to chose an autoloader action I would only rely (still hesitant) on the AK action for a gas system and the inertia driven of a Bellini for a shotgun.
Just a few more thoughts, Nothing else.
Cheers,
E.
That is the browning right? I forgot the model.
If in my purpose had bear in the list then forget the keltec and I would rather have a lever or a pump. Some folks like a quick bolt with a reliable case choice and that is ok too.
Cannot afford to have any "modern" system jam in the middle of a close encounter.
If I had to chose an autoloader action I would only rely (still hesitant) on the AK action for a gas system and the inertia driven of a Bellini for a shotgun.
Just a few more thoughts, Nothing else.
Cheers,
E.
Justin Holder
Member
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2010
- Messages
- 484
Yes, it is a Browning BLR light weight '81 take down.
chrome_austex
Member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 496
Would a Rem 870 make sense? (like an 18" or something..)
islandphish
Member
Not sure why we wouldn't rely on a "modern" semi-auto.
Are you suggesting the military should go to lever rifles?
Are you suggesting the military should go to lever rifles?
Cryogaijin
Member
Oh, tons of sense. Light shotties are quite popular bear defense guns up here, and most likely will be what I bring if I come along on the trip.
Because semi-autos are heavy, and honestly unneeded? Sure I could get a shoot-rite katana or Kel-tec Su-16 for 5.5lbs, but I REALLY would not want to use one against a bear. Once you start looking at semi-auto .308s you're lucky to find something under 9lbs.
One of the featherweight camp guns mentioned in this thread are >>FAR<< more attractive if you're going to be lugging it around 1500 miles.
Cryogaijin
Member
A couple notes that I should have brought up earlier. . .
While bears are a minor concern in Alaska, Moose are actually responsible for more injuries and deaths. TBH, I'm less concerned about bears than Moose, and .223 is simply inadequate for m005e. (A m0053 bit my sister once. . .)
That said, y'all gave me a lot of very useful replies. My friends and I will spend a bit of time tracking down the various firearms mentioned and getting a feel for them. Ultimately the one that feels best will be the one picked, as shooter comfort is the most important factor.
While bears are a minor concern in Alaska, Moose are actually responsible for more injuries and deaths. TBH, I'm less concerned about bears than Moose, and .223 is simply inadequate for m005e. (A m0053 bit my sister once. . .)
That said, y'all gave me a lot of very useful replies. My friends and I will spend a bit of time tracking down the various firearms mentioned and getting a feel for them. Ultimately the one that feels best will be the one picked, as shooter comfort is the most important factor.
islandphish
Member
Cryogaijin, sorry i was responding to 1stmarine saying semis are not good for bear. Hard to use the quote feature on the mobile.
New suggestion, since you are leaning 870 for yourself. Maybe just a cheap Enfield that no one cares if it gets damaged.
New suggestion, since you are leaning 870 for yourself. Maybe just a cheap Enfield that no one cares if it gets damaged.
1stmarine
Member
Cryogaijin,
Just to make one thing clear. nothing beats up a good reliable pump shotgun for many applications in the bush but also Regarding the .223 with the TSX bullet I just run the numbers for both and used the Federal Vital-Shok 2-3/4" Truball Rifled Slug 1 Ounce. At 50yards the slug packs 1,820 ft-lb. while the .223TSX has a decent 1,219 ft-lb.
At 100 yards the .223TSX retains 1,095 ft-lb while the slug is down to 919 ft-lb. So virtually the initial flaws/gaps of the .223 round that is not the lack of energy but the need for a solid hunting round. The TSX opens up consistently like a clover with 4 razor sharp blades turning inside and ALWAYS creating a consistent wound cavity. Always the same with the TSX regardless of the caliber. The bigger the better for large animals (no need to go over 30 caliber in 180gr TSX for anything) but there is no doubt that consistent shot to the head and vital organs with great penetration (even with the .224 bullet) that with its adequate ballistic coefficient and sectional density can be optimally used in many applications. With the .223 TSX the deer (even big bulls) when they are hit they, twitch and then roll over like hit by lightning. The hornady TAP is the closest but not the same consistency. Pigs (even big ones) also collapse with this one.
I am not suggesting that you go with this for your next bear but consider this information. The lack of decent hunting bullets in .223 (not the case) has been the problem but it is improving. Also the .243 department is enjoying a lot of innovations.
Cheers,
E.
Just to make one thing clear. nothing beats up a good reliable pump shotgun for many applications in the bush but also Regarding the .223 with the TSX bullet I just run the numbers for both and used the Federal Vital-Shok 2-3/4" Truball Rifled Slug 1 Ounce. At 50yards the slug packs 1,820 ft-lb. while the .223TSX has a decent 1,219 ft-lb.
At 100 yards the .223TSX retains 1,095 ft-lb while the slug is down to 919 ft-lb. So virtually the initial flaws/gaps of the .223 round that is not the lack of energy but the need for a solid hunting round. The TSX opens up consistently like a clover with 4 razor sharp blades turning inside and ALWAYS creating a consistent wound cavity. Always the same with the TSX regardless of the caliber. The bigger the better for large animals (no need to go over 30 caliber in 180gr TSX for anything) but there is no doubt that consistent shot to the head and vital organs with great penetration (even with the .224 bullet) that with its adequate ballistic coefficient and sectional density can be optimally used in many applications. With the .223 TSX the deer (even big bulls) when they are hit they, twitch and then roll over like hit by lightning. The hornady TAP is the closest but not the same consistency. Pigs (even big ones) also collapse with this one.
I am not suggesting that you go with this for your next bear but consider this information. The lack of decent hunting bullets in .223 (not the case) has been the problem but it is improving. Also the .243 department is enjoying a lot of innovations.
Cheers,
E.
Last edited:
1stmarine
Member
islandphish,
The idea of hunting with an AK is not well adopted in many places although I would not have a problem with it but also I Am not a forest ranger. This is changing quickly for many rifles and of course the AR. But when it comes to close range with dangerous game whether it is in the Yukon or the planes of Africa you will see quick bolt action, levers or double barrel rifles. Why?... 99.999999% reliability.
In America levers are very popular with any of the thumper rounds. They have been for a long time and they will continue to be. Also some pump rifles are popular as they also offer great reliability.
The military doesn't hunt for grizzlies or water buffaloes and if a system jams (not ideal neither) you use tactics to clear and continue. You cannot seek cover and clear or reload form a charging bear or a lion. They are not shooting at you they come FAST to kill you. You will be dead in an instant. That is why the preferred choice is not semiautomatic firearms.
That is a fact whether we like it or not.
Cheers,
E.
The idea of hunting with an AK is not well adopted in many places although I would not have a problem with it but also I Am not a forest ranger. This is changing quickly for many rifles and of course the AR. But when it comes to close range with dangerous game whether it is in the Yukon or the planes of Africa you will see quick bolt action, levers or double barrel rifles. Why?... 99.999999% reliability.
In America levers are very popular with any of the thumper rounds. They have been for a long time and they will continue to be. Also some pump rifles are popular as they also offer great reliability.
The military doesn't hunt for grizzlies or water buffaloes and if a system jams (not ideal neither) you use tactics to clear and continue. You cannot seek cover and clear or reload form a charging bear or a lion. They are not shooting at you they come FAST to kill you. You will be dead in an instant. That is why the preferred choice is not semiautomatic firearms.
That is a fact whether we like it or not.
Cheers,
E.
Old Time Hunter
Member
I was told by an outfitter when my group did an island hunt off Denali that he did not recommend semi's. His main concern is their proclivity to freeze up, due to the daily wide variation of temperatures, on critical second shots because of frosted ports. His suggestion was a lever, in a large caliber, if he had a preference to any. The most sought after gun in all of Alaska is a M71 chambered for the 450 Alaskan, just not too many around though.
islandphish
Member
Disagree.
I would think the use of a double on a .500 Nitro Express is because of the action size and the difficulty of working the action after that kind of recoil.
For big bolts, most likely are used b/c they take greater pressure range.
If I had a grizzly charging dead at me I would rather have a FAL than a big bore lever any day.
Please no offense but I believe your claims lie more in the region of opinion than fact.
I would think the use of a double on a .500 Nitro Express is because of the action size and the difficulty of working the action after that kind of recoil.
For big bolts, most likely are used b/c they take greater pressure range.
If I had a grizzly charging dead at me I would rather have a FAL than a big bore lever any day.
Please no offense but I believe your claims lie more in the region of opinion than fact.
Maverick223
Member
The standard for bear defense (from a shotgun) is the Brenneke Black Magic Magnum, and while it only has 2241ft*lbf of energy left at 50yds., it has a massive 3k+ at the muzzle...which is where it counts. It also has this nasty habit to deform about as much as a monolithic solid, so penetration is, umm, acceptable. The size, slug construction, and mass make up for the horrible sectional density. OTOH, the .223Rem....any .223Rem doesn't have the SD, nor the mass or caliber to get very far. Shot placement counts, but unfortunately that bullet has a hard time getting to the target (the CNS of a big animal). I think something a bit larger is in order, something .30cal+ is best for bear/moose territory.
A plane in Africa is about the only place you're gonna see a lever gun, & most lg., dangerous game hunters in the dark continent believe it is best to leave em' on the plane.
For NA they're fine, but when it comes to hot, humid regions you want something that can effectively extract when subjected to high pressures (and therefore cartridges that like to stick)...most of the time that means some form of Mauser.islandphish
Member
Island hunt off Denali?
I don't believe Denali is in a region known for islands.
Hunting season in Alaska is in the fall, mostly. Sure that means cold temps but not the Arctic blasts AK is famous for. Hunt at elevation and I could understand the worry about freezing up, though I've found the bears to be more likely found elsewhere.
Most hunts are more likely to be in constant rain/mist than freeze your gun up cold. I'd say you're more likely to freeze your gun up hunting Whitetails in WI in December than hunting Moose in Alaska in August/September.
I don't believe Denali is in a region known for islands.
Hunting season in Alaska is in the fall, mostly. Sure that means cold temps but not the Arctic blasts AK is famous for. Hunt at elevation and I could understand the worry about freezing up, though I've found the bears to be more likely found elsewhere.
Most hunts are more likely to be in constant rain/mist than freeze your gun up cold. I'd say you're more likely to freeze your gun up hunting Whitetails in WI in December than hunting Moose in Alaska in August/September.
- Status
