Backwards bullet experiment

[Black Snowman]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data outside currently published data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Now that that is out of the way. Someone brought this up over on 10mm Talk and thought I'd share here just to spread the love. The question that started this was: "What would happen if you were to load bullets backwards into cases & shoot them?"

Curiosity got the best of me so I ran a couple experiments.

The load for both rounds is a Starline 10mm case, CCI primer, 5.5 grains of Tite-Group and the 155 gr MagTech Guardian Gold. COL on the normal round is 1.230". The backwards bullet load is 1.105". I determined the backwards seating depth by seating them long and hand cycling them through the Delta. They all shortened (I kept one back for comparison). The one that jammed up and shortenned the most I used to set the seating die and ran them all through to the new depth. Now I don't get any set-back when I feed them through.

The results were very interesting. Accuracy was tested at 25 yards rested on a sand bag and both loads perfoemed about the same. The backwards rounds came out aproximately 50 FPS faster than the standard load averaging 975 FPS. One of the standard loads set back when it jammed and hit 1340 FPS when I fired it. The case showed no overpressure signs.

Here is the shocker. With these light loads and slow slide speeds the short backwards rounds fed perfectly where as the standard loads had feed problems. I had a couple of each fail to eject. That's not that unusual for light loads in my Delta though. The backwards bullets cut very clean holes so they weren't tumbling.

So, I loaded up a couple more batches. I bumped the charge up to 6.0 grains of Tite-Group and have 10 loaded the same as before and 5 loaded flush like a 38 full wad cutter. They got up to the pressures and velocities that my Delta is set up to run at and fixed my ejection issues.

Accuracy was the same with the bullet loaded either way but the holes were cut prettier with them backwards. There were no malfunctions of any kind.

The 1.105" COL loads were clocked at 1104 FPS +/- 8 FPS. One of the most consistant batches of 10 rounds I've ever loaded in 10mm. The 5 I loaded flush went 1135 give or take but started showing pressure signs (the primers were deformed slightly flatter than the other loads, although less than most factory ammo I've shot). That .125" makes a quite a differance in pressure.

Now I just wish I had a test medium for terminal balistics. I can get the 155 MagTechs going faster flying forward but not by much, but with their rapid expansion I bet they'd make a large and shallow wound cavity, assuming they even held together. Backwards I think I could get them to 1200 FPS safely with a 1.100" COL. 6.5 gr of Tite-Group should do it.

That's all for now.

 

[Roadkill]

I load a lot of .38s & 9mm, settled on a 124g Berry's plated 9mm bullet for both. I reverse them for the .38s, use a mid range load with Reddot, shoot them in a S&W airweight, Colt Trooper, and a Ruger Blackhawk. The Ruger is a .357 with a 9mm conversion cylinder. I figured if 9mms would work out of a .38/357 barrel for one gun then they'd work for the others. Makes great target ammo. Nice clean holes. Seat them so about 1/8" is showing.

 

[HiWayMan]

Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout Squad fame did this very thing with Super-Vel hollowpoints in .38 special when they first came out. You can read about it in his book:

http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Bullets-...=pd_bbs_1/002-6110147-8817650?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

[armoredman]

Wasn't the reversed hollow based wadcutter a popular reloaded defense ammo in the 70s?

 

[HiWayMan]

The reversed HBWC was considered by many to be a good snubbie self-defense round. In fact, I seem to recall reading, that the original Hydro-Shok was based on this loading. Modern gelatin tests have shown the RHBWC to be less than stellar in performance, however. There was also the issue that if they were run too hot, then the center could be blown out leaving a lead tube stuck in the barrel.

See the "Pocket full of Dynamite" article for testing of this load. It performed well in bare gelatin, but failed in the 4-layer denum(sp) test. Of course passing and failing depends largely on how much stock one puts into gelatin tests.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

 

[g56]

The reversed HBWC was considered by many to be a good snubbie self-defense round.

Yeah, we used to load them up that way back in the 70's, a lot of people thought these were the ultimate hollow point...but I quit doing it as soon as I shot some of them, excessive key holing was evident even at close range, and back up just a little bit and you had bullets hitting the target sideways, accuracy was extremely poor for that reason. It was one of those things that sounded like a good idea when you heard about it, in practice it didn't really work.

 

[rbernie]

I tried it recently with the Hornady 148gr HB-LWC in 38sp and experienced keyholing at virtually any distance past the muzzle.

 

[CZ223]

Boat tailed Wadcutters

That is what we call them in cowboy action shooting. A few years back a Cowboy Named Rusty Marlin started loading 44 specials this way to cut down on case capacity and get a more consistant lighter load. They worked quite well and accuracy was impressive. I have known several shooters that have done this with equaly good results. I wouldnt suggest carrying a semi auto loade this way just because of feeding problems. Just as an aside Smith&Wesson did make a semi auto designed specificaly to shoot 38 wadcutters, I believe it was the model 52 or 54.

 

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

.38 HBWC bullets backwards

Back in the 1960's as an officer loading for myself and officer friends for my police pistol team competing in Southern California I used hollow base wadcutters for being the most accurate commercial bullets available for reloading.

I was a NRA Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun and Home Defense Instructor and my department being constantly warned about officers accidently dropping their weapons in bathrooms when dropping their pants. The result being someone killed in a nearby apartment, I tested some HBWC bullets with target loads frontwards and backwards in some condemned buildings and learned that the HBWC bullets backwards had less penetration through walls, doors, mirrors etc being possibly a good home defense bullet.

The result was many officers including myself leaving pillow weapons with their wives I started loading backward .38HBWC commercial bullets for any officers that wanted them at all the police matches in Southern California. Target bullets could not be carried when on duty no matter their orientation as only departmental issued ammunition could be carried anywhere except at matches.

Reloading manuals constantly warned then about reloading HBWC bullets over the book recommended target velocity as the centers of the bullets could blowout leaving the sides in the bore.

Later in 1971 becoming a Commercial Police Reloader, Rangemaster and Police Firearms Instructor I provided the backwards bullet ammunition to many officers with instructions that they were for in home use only for self defense and not to be taken outside the home even off duty as lawyers could try to make a case that unauthorized ammunition was carried whatever they could cause trouble about. But inside a home, walls and bodies could cause bullets to go sideways or reverse.

The warnings still apply today for the soft HBWC bullets.