Bad gun smithing experience - exploring legal options

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USAF_Vet said:
Monday morning first thing I'll be on the phone with my county sheriff and the ATF.

Should I file suit in small claims or hold off on that?

I want some sort of compensation, the gun is 88 years old and has been in the family for a long time. Ideally, the shotgun should be replace with something of equal value, but you really can't put a dollar amount on sentimental value. The shotgun itself could be replaced for a few hundred, give or take, but it won't be the same gun that won Turkey Shoots when my step dad was a kid.
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See what the law turns up and start getting your receipts/photos/records in order if you do decide to make a claim. You never know, you may get it back. Maybe it will "turn up" in the back room.

I'm happy to hear you're standing up to this. We don't want or need people like this in the firearms business. Keep us updated! I hope they nail this loser.
 
This boggles my mind that he had the nerve to do that. Keep us updated and good luck
 
The old Model 10 is a Pedersen design and it is a PITA. I'll bet that "gunsmith" never saw one before, took it apart and broke or lost parts and can't get it back together. So he is lying rather than admit his incompetence.

He may have an FFL, but that only means BATFE checked to see if he has a police record; the license doesn't prove he knows anything about guns.

Jim
 
IMHO, it's a theft. First thing I'd do is is get your local LEOs involved and see what happens. Then I'd consider a suit in small claims court.
 
Man, what a scumbag!:fire:
Definitely notify the ATF and your Sheriff, without letting him know.

Btw, is this guy a professional gun smith, or is he just playing "gun smith"? And, do you keep or have records of the initial transaction, when you (your wife) dropped it off with him? If he's just a gun smith wannabe, and you have no records of the initial transaction, it would be a little tough, because it will be "you said he said".
 
Update:

I talked to him on the phone first thing this morning, and he offered to make it right by replacing the gun. He swore up and down it was an honest mistake and he wanted to make it right. I told him I'd let him know what I decided after I talked to my step dad.

I told my step dad about the offer to replace the gun, and also mentioned I was considering called the sheriff and the ATF, but wanted his opinion. Basically, he was ok with it if I wanted to call the ATF, but if I could get a gun out of him also, all the better. He was understandably upset, it being his grandfathers gun.

So I went into this guys shop, and guess what he has waiting behind the counter? If you guessed the Remington Model 10, you guessed right.

But it gets better. So he has the gun, apologizes profusely for the 'mistake' and informs me it's a wall hanger. He replaced a couple parts, but the receiver rails are so worn, along with the barrel lugs that hold it to the receiver, it'll never be safe to shoot. I expected as much when I dropped it off. Now here's where it gets even more fun. Its missing parts. The clamp that holds the magazine tube to the barrel is missing, the trigger pin is missing, and the slave screw for the stock is missing. He's going to look for them, or order them if he can find any.

Oh, it gets better still. For some unknown reason, he decided to take a wire wheel and strip off ALL THE PATINA on the barrel. 88 years of finish wear and patina, gone because of some idiot. I can't even consider him a gunsmith, despite his 01 FFL and brick and mortar store. He's clueless, and a liar.

I'm still considering the idea of telling my tale to the agent at the local ATF field office in Grand Rapids. His incompetence may be senility (the guys got to be in his 70s) or maliciousness

I'm glad I got the gun back, even in its current state, but I'm still not satisfied with the outcome.

If any one wants to know the name and address of thus place, so they know who to avoid, PM me.
 
That's a horrible experience. The part about him not having records is odd too because I believe a licensed gunsmith has to log firearms in and out like an FFL or am I mistaken?

I had something similar when I was a teenager. Dropped my four wheeler ATV off to get something done on it, the guy pulling it off the truck complimented how good of shape it was in being 10 years old. Few days later they called and asked if I had come gotten my ATV, I said no, they said it was gone. Apparently they had left it parked out back, outside, with no fence or security cameras and with the KEYS IN IT. I was fuming, they offered the blue book value of it which my parents made me take which wasn't enough to replace it. I've steered folks away from that shop ever since.
 
USAF_Vet said:
I want some sort of compensation, the gun is 88 years old and has been in the family for a long time. Ideally, the shotgun should be replace with something of equal value, but you really can't put a dollar amount on sentimental value. The shotgun itself could be replaced for a few hundred, give or take, but it won't be the same gun that won Turkey Shoots when my step dad was a kid.
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I would assume that any compensation will be determined by the court. Part of the judgement may be a reimbursement/compensation award, but that would be up to the judge or decided by the lawyers/DA pre trial. Getting monies for sentimental value seems to be more of a civil case than criminal and may depend on how far you are willing to take it.

As I and others have said, finding a honest and skilled gunsmith is sometimes harder than just looking in the yellow pages. When one is dealing with a family heirloom/one of a kind firearm, this is even more so. I have a Model 97 given to me by my dad....I know how bad I would feel if it was taken from me.
 
Sounds more like you got someone else's parts gun and they got yours. You never should have taken the gun. You could have about anything you wanted not have atf in his business and a visit to the sheriffs booking dept. Now with the gun at home you lost your chance. Now its his word against yours or maybe your wife.

To many community collage short term gunsmiths around and to few with any apprenticeship with another proven gun smith . You have to use care who you are dealing with.
 
you got it back, but that is not the end of the story

he is 70 and acted different each visit.... perhaps he has early on-set alzimers

without regards his mental health you deserve to be made whole.

he sells guns...and offered you 100$, and 150$ at different times.
a 250$ trade would be priced for resale ~400$.

he should offer you a used gun, tax free in the 350-400$ range

that is a deal I could be, though not happy, at least content with.
 
USAF_Vet, did you have a record of the serial number of the gun before it went it? I track all mine and note when they are out for repair, recall, etc.
 
USAF_Vet said:
But it gets better. Its missing parts. The clamp that holds the magazine tube to the barrel is missing, the trigger pin is missing, and the slave screw for the stock is missing. He's going to look for them, or order them if he can find any.

Oh, it gets better still. For some unknown reason, he decided to take a wire wheel and strip off ALL THE PATINA on the barrel. 88 years of finish wear and patina, gone because of some idiot. I can't even consider him a gunsmith, despite his 01 FFL and brick an
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I'm bettin' the "missing'' parts went into someone else's gun, either one of his, a buddies or a big dollar customer. The guys a crook and is trying to scam you. A wire brush to the barrel? Odd are , it's not even your barrel.
 
Proof of ownership from step dad would be needed before doing anything. And/or a receipt from the gunsmith, when wife left it with him.
 
Its the same gun, barrel and all. There were several very distinguishing marks on the receiver, stock and barrel before it went in, and despite the wire wheel, they are still very distinguishable. The missing parts are an oddity, and I don't think a capture screw and a trigger pin would be such a commodity, the barrel/mag clamp, however, might be. The only part that was replaced, for certain, is the action slide, which I was aware of.

Claude, that's along the lines of what I was thinking, some sort of elderly dementia.

It just all seems wrong to me, still. Saturday morning he was adamant the gun wasn't there, and had been picked up by my wife (who isn't a gunny, and wouldn't know the make and model of the gun), then Monday morning, after I told him I'd been advised to contact law enforcement and ATF, the gun mystically reappears.

The guy has been around for decades, and came highly recommended for old, obscure repairs. I'm kinda wondering though, if the other guy in the shop (never seen him before Saturday) was maybe an apprentice, and he did the 'work'.

In any case, I ended up with a wall hanger, as expected, albeit in worse condition than expected that to the idiot going buck wild with a wire wheel, and he ended up losing a customer (at least one) and is out 100% of his time and money.

I could probably still go after him for some sort of compensation, but at this point, I have the feeling he would fight me on it. I'll never visit his shop again, and will warn people away from him as often as I can, and still might drop a call to ATF to report his business practices (I did not drop off the gun, yet was still able to walk out of the shop with a firearm without a shred of paperwork).

I think it might be time for this guy to retire.
 
This a useful cautionary tale. My gunsmith, a great smith and and an honest man died earlier this year. I'm still looking for another gunsmith that I can trust. Be careful about who you turn your guns over to.
 
He parted it out. That's why he offered you the money in the first place. He knew someone or himself who had need for parts (try to find your missing parts anywhere, good luck), and your shotgun wasn't going to be a shooter. So he thought - hey this guy'll think it's a great score to get $150 for this thing!

He didn't anticipate that you had some kind of sentimental connection to it, and like an idiot he probably wire brushed the barrel thinking he could sell it on gunbroker or something. Have you checked gunbroker for parts similar to your gun? Search completed auctions.

No work should take months, that was the first red flag.

I had a pistol in a gunsmith's shop for 6 weeks, and I immediately turned up the heat to either get the repair done, or give me it back. I got it back within the next week, and I was happy with the work. But waiting so long for any work is just shady.
 
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Call the ATF and the police. He stole that gun from you. If he didn't, he better know who he transferred it to out of his bound book.

No work should take months, that was the first red flag.
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If you read the thread, he HAS the gun back , albeit with missing parts.
 
Call the ATF and the police. He stole that gun from you. If he didn't, he better know who he transferred it to out of his bound book.
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See post #32. He got the gun back, albeit in much worse condition than when he dropped it off.

I would assume that any compensation will be determined by the court. Part of the judgement may be a reimbursement/compensation award, but that would be up to the judge or decided by the lawyers/DA pre trial. Getting monies for sentimental value seems to be more of a civil case than criminal and may depend on how far you are willing to take it.
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There is nothing about this case that a DA would care one iota about. It is civil, cut and dried.
Now don't get me wrong, sometimes I wish such stupidity was criminal but it is not. It is a customer and a business in a dispute over how a business transaction was taken care of.
Taking a item in for service or repairs and the item being damaged by the person who is supposed to repair it is a civil issue. Every single time.

Now if he had of given the gun to someone else besides the owner, the ATF may have a course of action, I don't know. I don't work in that area.
I do work in a prosecuting attorney's office and know for a fact there would be no recourse there. Not in Arkansas anyway.

And FYI, it is very rare that DAs get involved in reimbursement/compensation matters. Most of the time those are civil. Civil law is designed to make the harmed party whole or to restore them to the point before the incident.
Criminal law is designed to punish criminals. Sometimes restitution is involved when property is damaged or medical bills are incurred but that's about it.
 
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