Bad guy at my door. Not hypothetical.

[Quentin]

I have to agree with the OP costumes are everywhere and are used to throw off a persons guard. BUT why was your front door not locked.

I had to get after my parents for an incident at their house just two days ago. An unfamiliar van had pulled into the driveway and driven past down to the vacant house below them and had driven up next to their line of cars where my car trailer is. They went to the bathroom to look and see what was going on as there is a small window that they can see out into the drive and they can not bee seen but they did not have the phone with them nor one of their guns. One of them then turned on the front porch light and the vehicle then tore out of the driveway spraying gravel and sliding sideways out over the ditch culvert out into the road.

I agree. Doors should be locked. It just takes a few seconds to open when needed.

 

[MedWheeler]

Hoppes love potion writes:

So the mag was empty?

I read it that way at first, too. But, I decided the OP meant "empty gun; mag on table", not "empty gun-mag on table." (He also says he was seen chambering a round. Hard to do that from an empty magazine.)

OP, punctuation goes a long way. "Let's eat, Grandma!" becomes quite sinister if you leave out the comma.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I don't see anyone saying they trust the random stranger, just not everyone willing to go all John Rambo (not saying the OP did).

Sometimes people get lost and run out of gas. Not everyone has a AAA membership or roadside assistance through their insurance.
Many times, and this is certainly true in my experience with military vets, people are intolerant of foreigners and unfamiliar cultures, to the point of hostility.

Most people who are out casing houses for burglary don't like to be confronted with hostility. They don't continue to case multiple houses in the same area after being confronted.

Begging or asking for money is not indicative of an intended crime. Its indicative of having, and needing, money. Nothing sinister about that.

Asking a different person for information after being yelled at by someone else is not indicative of hostile intent. Its indicative of patience and perseverance.

Being arrested isn't even really indicative of a the guy being a threat. The driver an the van were allowed to leave, the guy going door to door was detained. While somewhat more indicative of potentially sinister motives, had it been a middle class white guy, or anyone who seemed to fit the local demographic, I believe the outcome would have been completely different.
I don't trust people I don't know, but I'm polite and professional until the situation dictates my need to be otherwise.

 

[JSH1]

It is also quite reasonable to assume that where this guy is from people may be a bit friendlier to a stranger in need. I have traveled quite a bit and am continually amazed at how friendly people are and how willing they are to help out a stupid tourist. There is evil in the world but there is also a whole lot of good people too.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Sounds like you and your neighbors had that intuition go off in the back of your head. I'd trust that. If some stranger comes to my door either my wife or I are armed.

 

[larry_minn]

I realize folks take (personal ex) from any story....

My question is. I get warning from neighbor of possible danger, I go to lock door (agree it should be locked) and pick up gun INSIDE MY HOME and load it as going to front door (to lock)

I don't read where he was yelling threats, pointing his gun at person walking up??? He does not say he invited the person to "Make his day" or even any cute one liners.

I have gotten away from having door unlocked unless I am unloading car into house. (and garage locked) I think the fuel guy is only one I unlock door for.

(I have to open window in basement, carry hose to tank, tell him to "come on in" and he does filling. Then again most places they require a outside fill point. As I don't make it a PITA, pay on delivery they ignore the requirement they have. (and I am too lazy to go back upstairs to let him in)

 

[Panzerschwein]

I would have never left the door unlocked in the first place.

That and I would have tried to keep the gun hid.

 

[BrokenSailor]

I doubt that a non-specific text message from a neighbor and one's conclusion that "something was wrong" would suffice as reason to believe that the presentation of a firearm had been lawfully justified in any US jurisdiction.

You don't need a reason to justify your presentation of a firearm lawfully on your own porch or property in any US jurisdiction. That is the Bear Arms part of the 2nd...

 

[larryh1108]

I see so many state they would not have let the stranger see his gun. Why? He was on his own property. He wasn't pointing it at the stranger. Why keep the gun hidden? That makes no sense. Keeping the gun in sight is a way of showing ability to defend. To those who will say the stranger will know guns are in the house and come back for them, I'd have to say that in a rural area like that, to assume there are no guns in the house would be silly.

 

[HexHead]

If he was just lost or asking for directions, he wouldn't have been arrested.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If he was just lost or asking for directions, he wouldn't have been arrested.

Right, because somebody lost or asking directions/money never had an unpaid parking ticket for which a warrant was issued, was publically intoxicated, had mental health issues. And was he arrested or just taken into custody?

You don't know why he was arrested. We don't know he was a bad guy.

The story would have been better if the OP included a link to the local police blotter for the incident.

It seems rather dubious that the cops just happened to see the guy in the neighborhood and responded with 3 cars. Somebody must have called the cops and if so, the cops would have likely contacted that person with an update, especially if an arrest was made. This part of the story seems to be missing.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by BrokenSailor: You don't need a reason to justify your presentation of a firearm lawfully on your own porch or property in any US jurisdiction. That is the Bear Arms part of the 2nd...

I'm afraid you are very badly mistaken.

In general, and there are exceptions, what is lawful under use of force laws is the same whether one's actions take place on one's property or on one's porch or in the town square.

Read this for an overview.

Posted by larryhh108: I see so many state they would not have let the stranger see his gun. Why? He was on his own property. He wasn't pointing it at the stranger. Why keep the gun hidden? That makes no sense. Keeping the gun in sight is a way of showing ability to defend.

That question should be adequately addressed in the above link. Pay particular attention to Post # 16 in that thread.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Had the OP pointed the gun at the guy I would say he overreacted, but he didn't. He stepped onto the porch and merely had it in his hand.

I too would be suspicious of a stranger in a van going up to houses and begging for money.
Some have said that he was probably just lost. That is certainly a possibility. On the other hand, he may have been waiting for someone to not answer the door so he could break in. In any case, the OP was certainly within his rights to step onto the porch with a gun in his hand (I think).

As I said before, pointing it at the guy in this situation would have been over the line and likely a misdemeanor criminal offense, but that didn't occur.

You can never over react. You can point gun at anyone that you have fear of your life or property from.

WRONG!
You cannot use deadly force to protect property, only to protect life. That's how the Arkansas law is written anyway.
And it has to be a situation where a reasonable person would fear for their life.

I also have some experience with Indians, and some can be very persistent to the point of being annoying. They also have different ideas as to personal space than you probably do

If they're standing on my porch and have a different idea as to personal space as me, they'll damn sure be introduced to my idea about it and quickly.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying pull out a gun in that situation. Far from it.

 

[JRH6856]

WRONG!
You cannot use deadly force to protect property, only to protect life. That's how the Arkansas law is written anyway.

And are you assuming Kentucky law reads the same? Or just pointing out that the laws could be different in different states? As is well known, Texas is different regarding protection of property, but Texas isn't Kentucky, either.

 

[Kleanbore]

Just about every year at this time, we hear warnings from police departments in the area to keep the doors locked when one is outside in the back yard cooking or gardening. It seems that groups, sometimes but not always identified as gypsies, look for houses where the residents are outside, try the front doors, enter, and leave with valuables.

We make it a practice to keep the doors locked even when we are inside. Persons identifying themselves as churchmen, salespersons for window cleaners and painters, and so forth periodically come by when the days are longer. They may be who they say they are--or not.

One thing I do not do is go to the door with gun in hand. No good can come of that. Under my shirt, in a holster, yes. But in hand? NO!

We have discussed this before, but opening the door for an unknown person is usually very unwise indeed.

It is important to always remember that hang an even holding a firearm will not stop blades or bullets traveling toward one.

Nor do we think it prudent to compound the risk of leaving the door unlocked by leaving an unattended pistol on a table when we are outdoors.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

And are you assuming Kentucky law reads the same?

What I'm assuming is that no state condones pointing a gun at someone merely because you're in fear that they might take your property. That is a very subjective thing that anyone could say at any time basically. You could thrown down on someone as soon as they stepped on your property and say, "Hey, I feared that they might steal something."

I realize that the deadly force requirements vary from state to state.

 

[Theohazard]

You can never over react.

This is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Of course you can overreact! People go to jail all the time because they overreact to situations like this. Luckily the OP didn't overreact, though it looks like his neighbor might have.

Sure is a disturbing number of people here that trust strangers.....

What I find disturbing is the number of people who are so fearful and sheltered that they automatically assume this guy was a criminal or had bad intentions. Sure, caution was definitely warranted in this situation (I don't think the OP did anything wrong), but the guy might have simply been someone who was lost and needed gas money.

What about the begging everybody for money part of this ? Does that not raise a bit if suspicion ?

Not enough to assume he's a bad guy. Asking for money doesn't mean he's looking to hurt someone.

And was an arrest not made ?

Um, people get arrested all the time for no good reason...

Here's the thing: I grew up in some bad areas of a major city. And for almost 40 years our family contracting business was run out of a very bad part of town. Stuff like this happened all the time where I grew up. And usually it was just folks who needed money. They rarely ever wanted to hurt someone. Sure, it's good to be prepared just in case they actually do want to hurt you, but there's no need to overreact to a situation that could easily turn out to be harmless.

I've discovered that the people who are the most fearful of situations like this are the ones who never grew up in bad areas. They have very little street smarts and they're not familiar with situations like this. Self-defense was basically illegal where I grew up (stuff like handguns and pepper spray were banned), but I watched both my parents -- neither armed with anything more than a pocket knife -- deal with the local drug dealers and homeless guys on a daily basis. It's fairly easy to deal with this kind of situation without overreacting. But it sounds like that's exactly what the OP's neighbor did. I find it extremely amusing how afraid the OP's neighbor was of one foreign guy who was lost and asking for money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you should assume this guy was harmless. I carry a gun everywhere I go -- including inside my home -- just in case stuff like this happens and the person ends up having bad intentions. But I also know that most situations like this can be handled verbally, even if the other guy really does have bad intentions.

 

[BrokenSailor]

I'm afraid you are very badly mistaken.

In general, and there are exceptions, what is lawful under use of force laws is the same whether one's actions take place on one's property or on one's porch or in the town square.

Read this for an overview.

That question should be adequately addressed in the above link. Pay particular attention to Post # 16 in that thread.

So now we are talking about use of force in the village square? You like to change your facts to fit your argument. Let me gently bring you back...

I doubt that a non-specific text message from a neighbor and one's conclusion that "something was wrong" would suffice as reason to believe [U]that the presentation of a firearm had been lawfully justified in any US jurisdiction[/U].

So from presentation of a firearm you have run on to... use of force in the village square????

I can walk around my property and my house with no reason at all Lawfully presenting any firearm I own, in any state of the United States. I can open carry my handgun while I am mowing my lawn...Lawfully presenting so that everyone can see that I am armed. Now given the Castle Doctrine applies, you put your argument on even weaker ground.

So what do you think the gentlemen here should have done? Instead of arguing against us, that think he did not over react, how about a suggestion what a proper reaction would have been, in your experience? For gods sake man, the police arrested the guy at the end of the block. What exactly is your point?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

WRONG!
You cannot use deadly force to protect property, only to protect life. That's how the Arkansas law is written anyway.

What I'm assuming is that no state condones pointing a gun at someone merely because you're in fear that they might take your property.

Bad assumption. We definitely have circumstances in Texas that allow for this, generally at night. We do it regularly and it often comes up in discussion on this forum.

 

[BrokenSailor]

I find it extremely amusing how afraid the OP's neighbor was of one foreign guy who was lost and asking for money....

The cops arrested the guy at the end of the block. Obviously everybody who had their radar up did the right thing. There was no over reaction. The guy was a criminal!

I grew up shooting bad guys for a living in the military and if an Army Vet down the block told me to be prepared cause some A hole was coming my way, I would have done the exact same thing.

For all WestKentucky knows, and all of YOU know, that gun could have saved his life...

You don't know if the CRIMINAL had a gun on him, or a knife.... if he was looking to rape a little girl... in short you know less about the situation than the gentleman who started the post, and he only knows that after the guy left his house, the cops (multiple cops) took him down and arrested him.

And you find it amusing???....:banghead: and you are going to dog him for being over reactive? You are all nuts. I have a gun on me when ANYBODY comes to my door, let alone some whacko the police arrest in front of me...

Good Job WestKentucky! You are alive and half these guys might be dead before the cops could have got there. You will never know. Dead Men tell no tales...

WestKentucky..why don't you call the Precinct and ask why they arrested the guy that came to your door? This way we can clear up for all the Dead Men here that had their little girls raped while their throat was slit exactly how bad the man was that came to your door? Was he just a little bad or very bad? Was he a violent offender? Not that you had that information before he was arrested, but you can get it now, since you are alive. :banghead:

Exit thread....can't stomach it anymore....my apologies to all whom I offended from my soap box...

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Bad assumption. We definitely have circumstances in Texas that allow for this, generally at night. We do it regularly and it often comes up in discussion on this forum.

Wow.
So you can draw a gun, point it at someone and threaten to shoot them if you think they might steal from you.
That sounds like a terrible idea even if it is legal.

 

[JRH6856]

So you can draw a gun, point it at someone and threaten to shoot them if you think they might steal from you.

It is not quite a general as you imply, but under certain circumstances, Yes.

By Texas statute, a threat of deadly force is defined as a use of force, but not a use of deadly force.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I just read the Texas Penal Code Chapter 9 and it does make much more sense when looked at in its entirety. It clears up the force vs. deadly force and allows for more force to used at night as Double Naught Spy mentioned.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by BrokenSailor: I can walk around my property and my house with no reason at all Lawfully presenting any firearm I own, in any state of the United States. I can open carry my handgun while I am mowing my lawn...Lawfully presenting so that everyone can see that I am armed.

There is a very distinct and critical difference between open carry and the presentation of a firearm. The former falls under the firearms or weapons laws. The latter has to do with the use of force laws, as I have stated.

In an open carry jurisdiction, one may lawfully carry a firearm unconcealed in most public places. In many others, one may lawfully carry firearm unconcealed in certain other places, which vary according to the law--on one's private property, in some places but not all; and perhaps in one's place of business; and unless I am mistaken, within one's home in every jurisdiction.

Do not confuse open carry with drawing or holding a firearm in one's hand.

To illustrate the difference. I'll relate the case of a New Hampshire resident that was discussed here at some length several years ago. New Hampshire is an open carry state. A citizen went out on his own property to investigate an incident of trespass. He carried his gun in his hand.

The trespasser claimed that the proper owner pointed the gun; he stated otherwise. Nevertheless, he was convicted for having threatened the trespasser with a firearm, and he was sentenced to a mandatory prison term. He was released early, but he is a felon without gun rights.

Now given the Castle Doctrine applies, you put your argument on even weaker ground.

The castle doctrine has to do with the use of force, including deadly force, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with carrying a firearm.

And nowhere does that doctrine permit one to threaten someone for coming peaceably onto the porch. Nowhere.

So what do you think the gentlemen here should have done? Instead of arguing against us, that think he did not over react, how about a suggestion what a proper reaction would have been, in your experience?

We have covered what to do when a stranger comes to the door many times. In short, the best advice is to stay inside where he cannot see you to shoot you, to ask his business, and ask if he would like you to call the police to help him. And, of course, to be prepared for the worst should he breach the door.

For gods sake man, the police arrested the guy at the end of the block. What exactly is your point?

Wether or not the man was arrested or taken into custody under other circumstances is entirely irrelevant to both the lawful justification and the tactical wisdom of a resident showing a gun in his hand to someone at the door.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I grew up shooting bad guys for a living in the military

It has been my experience that those who make such statements haven't