Bad guy at my door. Not hypothetical.

[Theohazard]

The cops arrested the guy at the end of the block. Obviously everybody who had their radar up did the right thing. There was no over reaction. The guy was a criminal!

Once again, just because he was arrested doesn't necessarily mean anything; innocent people are arrested all the time. The guy definitely acted in a way that should have caused concern, but it doesn't mean he was a criminal.

For all WestKentucky knows, and all of YOU know, that gun could have saved his life...

Of course that's possible, but for all we know the guy could have been harmless, too.

You don't know if the CRIMINAL had a gun on him, or a knife.... if he was looking to rape a little girl... in short you know less about the situation than the gentleman who started the post, and he only knows that after the guy left his house, the cops (multiple cops) took him down and arrested him.

Any stranger you see on the street could be armed and looking to rape a little girl. Or they might not be. But it's naive to assume this guy was a criminal based on what the OP posted. And it's completely ignorant to conclude he was a criminal simply because he was arrested. My whole point here is that we just don't know.

And you find it amusing???.... and you are going to dog him for being over reactive? You are all nuts. I have a gun on me when ANYBODY comes to my door, let alone some whacko the police arrest in front of me...

Read what I wrote in my previous post again, because I never said the OP overreacted. In fact, I said the opposite. Twice. But it does look to me like the neighbor overreacted. And I take back the "amusing" part; actually I find it sad: I find it sad that you and the neighbor are so afraid of strangers that you're convinced this guy was a criminal based on very little evidence.

Your insistence that this guy was a dangerous criminal is simply astounding to me: You obviously have very little street smarts and you're either inexperienced with situations like this or you're simply paranoid. I'm a Marine infantry veteran and I carry a gun at all times; I have it holstered when I answer the door. But there's a huge difference between being prepared to defend yourself against a possible criminal, and assuming someone is a criminal simply because they act oddly. And the fact that you can't tell the difference worries me, because the last thing we need is more scared, trigger-happy gun owners blasting away at unarmed people simply because they looked scary. The media already tries hard enough to convince people that happens all the time.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I don't care who I am expecting I can't imagine just leaving my front door unlocked anymore than I can imagine just walking into anyone's home.

I knock on my kid's door when I go visiting them and they do the same when they visit us

 

[larryh1108]

What is getting lost in all of this, or maybe ignored, is the texts from the neighbor telling him to get prepared for battle, now!

What would the OP have done if this guy just rang his doorbell without prior warning? I'd be willing to bet his DEFCON number would have been a lot lower and he may have been cordial to the visitor. We can't exclude the warning he received in his actions nor do I believe a court would ignore them if he was arrested for brandishing or menacing or whatever. Those texts change everything.

 

[PistolPete45]

You did not shoot him right from the start > you did good > you did not try to detain him face down in the yard , good again you did not follow him > another good . I do not see anything you did that was excessive at all . I give to a passing mark for being an armed homeowner .

 

[mgmorden]

we should not forget the case where a Japanese exchange student was fatally shot in Texas for coming up to the wrong house and not being familiar with the language kept approaching the owner....

He didn't "come up" the wrong house, he "came into" the wrong house. Big difference there, particularly with castle doctrine in effect.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by PistolPete45: I do not see anything you did that was excessive at all .

The question on that score is whether others--the charging authority, a grand jury if there is one, and a trial jury, if it comes to that--would see the showing of an unholstered firearm as having been excessive, considering what the homeowner knew at the time. Did the homeowner have a basis for a reasonable belief that the stranger, who had evidently made no attempt to enter the home unlawfully and with force, presented an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury (or in some jurisdictions, for a reasonable belief that the use of force against the visitor was other wise lawfully justified)?

I give to a passing mark for being an armed homeowner .

Not sure that being armed merits a passing grade, because armed homeowners have been killed and injured and charged with crimes, but this does give us some lessons:

• About leaving the front door unlocked when one is outside;
• about leaving a firearm unattended under the circumstance;
• about showing oneself to a person about whom a neighbor has sent a possibly ominous warning, and making oneself a possible target.

None of those is a good idea at all.

So, what should one do?

• Keep the doors locked;
• In the event that a worrisome stranger comes to the door, stand where he cannot detect your location and deal with him firmly, while remaining ready for any contingency.

And call the police.

 

[JRH6856]

He didn't "come up" the wrong house, he "came into" the wrong house. Big difference there, particularly with castle doctrine in effect.

The case referred to took place in Baton Rouge, LA, not Texas. And he was never in the house, he was in the front yard.

ETA: There are a lot of similarities to the incident we are discussing

 

[Fred Fuller]

What is getting lost in all of this, or maybe ignored

What's getting lost in all of this is that there's a huge number of things that could have happened, but only one of them did - and that outcome was all in all a pretty good one for the homeowner.

There's no time to "what if" all of the possibilities, but a short wander through the daily newspapers for a month will introduce enough horror stories to make any normal person re-examine a lot of things in life. Defensive firearms trainer Tom Givens suggests exactly that as a good way to increase situational awareness.

It's been a while since I suggested spending a day or two in the gallery of your local criminal courtroom. There's no admission charge, and the experience will probably do a lot to disabuse a spectator of many misconceptions about how the justice system actually works. It's some of the cheapest education you can get, and well worth while.

 

[JRH6856]

It's been a while since I suggested spending a day or two in the gallery of your local criminal courtroom. There's no admission charge, and the experience will probably do a lot to disabuse a spectator of many misconceptions about how the justice system actually works. It's some of the cheapest education you can get, and well worth while.

Highly recommended. And you don't have to go looking for high profile cases. You can learn a lot from a contested traffic ticket.

 

[JSH1]

I find it sad that you and the neighbor are so afraid of strangers that you're convinced this guy was a criminal based on very little evidence.

As do I. I find it sad that the top 3 threads on this subforum are: An Indian guy assumed to be a threat because he knocked on people's doors, a guy angry with his wife for answering the door, and a guy asking about setting up security while camping. What is happening that people are so paranoid?

I grew up in a lower middle class town. We never locked our front door while we were home. My neighbor and I walked 2 blocks home from the bus stop in kindergarten. The kids in my neighborhood walked or rode our bicycles 1 mile to elementary school unescorted. During the summer we played outside by ourselves with the only rule being we had to be home by the time the street lights came on. This was during the 80's when crime was steadily climbing and at levels 50% higher than today. An yet nothing bad happened to any of us.

Today we have multiple people in this thread saying never to answer your door or if you do make sure you have a gun in your hand.

 

[bflee]

I am not going to lock my door in the daytime. I live down a 3/8 of a mile path in the swamp. My chihuahuas will let me know you are coming. I will sort it out from there if you are lucky. You dont want to scare my wife or you have real problems!
The man didnt shoot anyone and all was well in the end.
Sounds good to me.

 

[WestKentucky]

Well...this post has certainly gone down a different path than I expected. Makes me wish I hadn't posted it in a way...but to settle things...guy who called the cops is the neighbor who was yelling at the guy for trying to push his way into the home. Other neighbor saw them scuffling in the front yard and sent the text. Told guy to wait on his step for his ride to turn around and come back. Same thing happened with another neighbor a few minutes earlier. The arrest was for drug possession and assault.

 

[JRH6856]

So it was just your average, friendly, drug-crazed assailant?

 

[Fred Fuller]

this post has certainly gone down a different path than I expected.

Well, let's try to look at the OP objectively. You said:

#1) Tonight at sunset I was outside lighting my grill

#2) my army neighbor sent me 2 texts back to back. First said "locknload" second said "lock front door NOW". So I don't hesitate. To hell with the grill. As I run through my back door and grab my m9 from the table I head to the door. M9 just reassembled from cleaning, empty gun mag on table.

The implication here as far as I can tell from what you've posted is that you were outside your house, in the back yard, paying attention to the grill, with the front door of your house deliberately left unlocked, and an unsecured firearm in plain sight on a table inside, with no other adult other than yourself inside the house or on the property.

Am I reading correctly so far? And was the glass storm door out front locked, or unlocked?

 

[JSH1]

Well...this post has certainly gone down a different path than I expected. Makes me wish I hadn't posted it in a way...but to settle things...guy who called the cops is the neighbor who was yelling at the guy for trying to push his way into the home. Other neighbor saw them scuffling in the front yard and sent the text. Told guy to wait on his step for his ride to turn around and come back. Same thing happened with another neighbor a few minutes earlier. The arrest was for drug possession and assault.

That is a very different story than your original post. Your OP said they guy was going door to door looking for a Mr. Applegate and asking for money. Nothing about trying to force his way into a house or getting into a physical altercation on a neighbor's front lawn. With those details I'm sure you would have gotten a different response.

 

[Theohazard]

That is a very different story than your original post. Your OP said they guy was going door to door looking for a Mr. Applegate and asking for money. Nothing about trying to force his way into a house or getting into a physical altercation on a neighbor's front lawn. With those details I'm sure you would have gotten a different response.

I agree. Based on the information in the original post, there was no way to be certain this guy was up to no good. And I stand by my criticisms of the posters who were certain this guy was a criminal, because there originally wasn't enough information to conclude that.

And I'm still amazed by how many paranoid, fearful people there are on gun forums who are convinced that a gun is the only way to defend themselves and their family against all the scary strangers out there. Yes, a gun is a very useful tool, but it's not your only tool. Some of us have lived in bad areas where carrying a gun is illegal, and we learned to get along through situational awareness, confidence, and street smarts.

 

[Pyzon]

Yep, this info changes things.

Too bad we did not have it eons ago.

I still cannot fault the OP for what happened.

Better to keep yourself safe than sorry.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Pyzon: Yep, this info [("guy who called the cops is the neighbor who was yelling at the guy for trying to push his way into the home. Other neighbor saw them scuffling in the front yard and sent the text. Told guy to wait on his step for his ride to turn around and come back. Same thing happened with another neighbor a few minutes earlier. The arrest was for drug possession and assault")]changes things.

Well, unless the OP knew it at the time, it changes absolutely nothing in terms of what he should have done.

It does, however, confirm that the unidentified visitor was potentially dangerous.

I still cannot fault the OP for what happened.

For leaving the front door unlocked? For leaving an unsecured firearm on a table in an unlocked house? For placing himself in a position that made him a potential target? For handling a firearm in such a manner that could well have led to an investigation, if not charges?

Better to keep yourself safe than sorry.

Yes, and we have discussed ways of doing that.

I live in a very, very "safe" neighborhood. But we keep the doors locked, and frankly, though no one can tell, I do not grill food in the back yard without having with me the means to remain safe rather than sorry. Costs nothing, adds no inconvenience, and adds security. Never have needed it.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

a guy angry with his wife for answering the door,

Where did I say I was angry?

 

[Kleanbore]

Answer the Door?

See this.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I find this “living in fear” meme to be a little insulting. Where do we draw the line? There are people out there that think carrying or even owning a gun means you "live in fear"

The fact is the world we live in demands prudence. I don’t cower in my home but I’m also not opening my home to uninvited (these two words do not go together BTW) guests either.

I've said this before but, I've never answered a door to a stranger and had it turn out good. That's not to say that I've ever been robbed, but it's always been some kind of a pitch that I really don't want to hear. Now I simply don't open the door

 

[Trunk Monkey]

See this.

This is what Kleanbore linked to since I wrote it I'm just going to repost it

I’ve seen this discussed on other forums and it seems to cause a lot of debate when it comes up.

I found this video by Massad Ayoob on youtube in which he explains how he deals with a stranger at his door and there’s not much I can add to it except maybe my personal experience.

I am convinced that I stopped an attempted robbery at the front door of my home several years ago by simply not opening the door.

A stranger showed up at my door around 9 pm saying that he wanted to give me a free Denver Post. This was back when I owned a home and I looked through the front window and he had no newspaper in his hands.

He spent 10 minutes trying to get me to open that door; nothing else was going to do. I finally ended the conversation by telling him I was calling the police. I am aware that there are any number of things I could have done better but it was almost 10 years ago and I’ve learned some since then.

I believe it’s prudent not to open the door to a stranger if for no other reason than I don’t want to hear a pitch for meat or a vacuum cleaner or encyclopedias or magazines or an invitation to your church. By not opening the door for anyone I don’t know I automatically am never faced with a situation where I open the door to a criminal.

If it is a criminal I want every advantage I can have. Why put myself in a position where I have to fight them at the door when I can just not open the door and avoid the fight entirely?

 

[Kleanbore]

^^^^^^^^

No.

 

[gym]

When a stranger is at my door, I don't open it until I know who they are and what they want. If I do open it for more information, my hand is in my pocket, on a PM9. If something goes wrong, I can stop it right there. Been there with push in robberies, 30 years ago, won't allow that again. 80 lb lab comes to door with me, and this is South Florida, "land of the strange". We have posted no solicitations at the gate, if 2 young big guys, who claim to want me to get closer to God, want to talk to me, they can talk to the Sheriff about trespassing.
Or actually get a chance for a personal visit if they are up to no good.
Those gates are there for a reason, if you come in uninvited, chances are you are up to no good, as we aren't open to the public. Just people who live here visit and contractors.
Anyone else is politely told to leave, followed by a call to local law. But a hand on a small 9mm is a much more reliable way to stop anything right there.
My house has a 20 ft corridor with the house on both sides, so you are stuck there if a gun comes out.

 

[JSH1]

I find this “living in fear” meme to be a little insulting. Where do we draw the line?

That blade cuts both ways. I find it a bit annoying when people insinuate I am a poor husband and neglecting the safety of my family because a don't carry.

I've said this before but, I've never answered a door to a stranger and had it turn out good. That's not to say that I've ever been robbed, but it's always been some kind of a pitch that I really don't want to hear. Now I simply don't open the door

Which makes we wonder about society. Have we gotten to the point that we can't be bothered to answer the door? No wonder people live in a place for years and don't know their neighbors.