Bad LEO encounter, need advice please

[CZ-75]

Devonai,

Get a traffic lawyer and argue, based on what has happened to other couriers, that you had a legitimate fear. Note the unmarked personal vehicle and the fact the officer didn't engage you in the parking lot over your alleged "infraction," but chose to tail you in an intimidating manner w/o IDing himself at any time. The officer should get a reprimand, not you. JBT mindset is evident that he just didn't come over and cite you first thing, but instead chose to tail and intimidate. Did HE have a reason not to engage you? Seems he was the one who was too nervous to handle things properly. Your fear was reasonable given the lack of ID and questionable vehicle.

Oh, and buy better tires. Anything that squeals so easily is likely not much good. Nothing more important to traction, handling and braking than tires. Tirerack.com is a good place to shop and NTB is a good place to get them mounted

 

[brownie0486]

Intune :

No thugs with bats and chains came to Devonai's window. If they had, of course a reasonable person could make a case for extricating themselves in any way possible. The statement stands.

Devonai :


I don't see the self defense theory here. He had not threatened you overtly and the mere presence behind you does not justify a self defense scenario [ I'm assuming by self defense you mean escaping in this instance ]. You had not been threatened merely by his presence.

Prudence in your profession is certainly admirable, and that you recognized the vehicle, noted it's posture toward you, and reacted by driving away from the potential threat.

I didn't see the use of the excessive and intimidating driving on his part in the original posting. Was he merely following you [no overt threat to react to ] or did he attempt to pull you over or block your movement in some way [ which of course then would be reasonable to assume you were under some form of attack ].

I've done some courier work over the years. You have to stay on your toes and be observant, which I think you were according to the posts. If he was being aggressive in following, then your actions were warranted in slowing and proceding through the intersections, but I didn't see the aggressive posture posted initially. You stated you were on the highway and waiting for blue lights/wigwags.

That initially would lead one to believe he was just tailing and not acting erratically [ which was not posted ]. I know your intentions were not to bash cops, but a few known cop bashers kicked right in with their standard bad cop routine right off the bat in replies and were not being objective in their assessment of the scenario.

Brownie

 

[TallPine]

Just wonder what folks would be saying if Devonai had gotten beaten and robbed by the guy in the SUV, supposing that he had NOT been a cop ???

"Bad tactics ... not enough situational awareness ... should not have let yourself get trapped ... should have run the red light ...."

More likely, this thread or any other would not have happened, Devonai just wouldn't be posting here anymore and no one would know why.

 

[brownie0486]

CZ-75:

Devonai drove off before the officer could ID himself or get close enough to be identified.

He can't really use your suggestion about the cop not IDing himself when Devonai drove off before he could now right?

How do you tail in an intimidating manner? From the post, Devonai FELT threatened, but nowhere in the psot does he state an action by the officer that was threatening.

JBT indeed, reread the post before you post that crap with no basis for the comments.

Brownie

 

[CZ-75]

Better to be killed than run a red light on deserted streets? Maybe they'll give you a safe driver medal, posthumously of course.

 

[brownie0486]

TallPine:

Seems from the post he has/had situational awareness. How does one get beaten and robbed by the single act of being tailed with no other intervention mentioned on the tailers part anyway?

Seems other actions would have had to occur before anyone got close enough to beat or rob him. He doesn't say the cop was trying to pull him over [ may be taken as an act of aggression ], only tailing him.

He is in a vehicle that gives quite a bit of safety inside as well as being able to observe the actions of others. Nothing has been stated about the cop being aggressive.

Course others here espousing their JBT mentality would consider it so much aggression [ being followed ] they would be in fear for their lives.

Brownie

 

[CZ-75]

Before I could start to fill out my form, the SUV began to cross the parking lot and came right up to my vehicle. It was poining straight at my driver's side, and behind the lights I could make out neither the driver nor the plates. I suspected that this may be the local police officer hired to do the standard security detail at the theatre, but being unable to identify any markings, plates, or details about the driver I decided to pull away.

Brownie,

I guess your reading comprehension is as good as your spelling and common sense. Pretty obvious that there was enough time for the cop to exit the vehicle and ID. When you were a JBT, it's hard to lose the mindset, I guess.


Oh, and these actions could be construed as "aggressive."

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't know enough about the specifics to comment on this situation, but my biggest pet peeve with LEO's is their stubborn refusal to use both lights and the siren. Just the other day I nearly got nailed by one running a red light with ONLY LIGHT, no siren. Since my line of sight was blocked by two large trucks, I had no idea he was there till the last second, when he decided he should turn on his siren. Then he promptly turned it back off and kept on running reds! Is this some idiotic department policy or something! If you want somebody to pull over or get out of the way, turn on siren and lights. Otherwise you have nothing to complain about.

When I was younger, I also had a bad experience with an unmarked car using no visible flashing light and no siren. The cop claimed he had been trying to pull me over for miles, but since he didn't even issue a ticket I suspect he knew he was wrong.

 

[brownie0486]

CZ-75

"but being unable to identify any markings, plates, or details about the driver I decided to pull away."

As he pulled away, you see anything where he states the cop had a chance to get out of the car before he pulled away? I don't. And neither do you. And of course later he states

"I do regret not hesitating a moment longer during the initial encounter. If I had seen the uniform then I could have avoided this entire situation,"

Guess by his own admission he [ Devonai ] didn't hang around long enough for the cop to ID himself did he now?

When you are a woeisme, it's hard to lose the mindset, I guess.

As to the spelling, it's a big deal here on a forum? I didn't know I was in a spelling bee here.

Brownie

 

[Gmac]

I think Tallpine nailed it.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

MA is a police state. Has been since before I left it a decade ago. What happened to you doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

A police officer that does nothing to identify himself, but does go to the trouble of pulling up perpendicularly to another person's vehicle in a parking lot at night, is nothing more than any other thug intimidating people in his big bad car/S.U.V. The badge that he hides in his pocket doesn't justify that behavior. If a cop isn't willing to identify him/herself (with the extraordinary exception of undercover work - which this wasn't, or he wouldn't have broken cover), then they aren't worthy of the badge that they carry.

The little tirade/ticket that you were treated to, is the thug's way of saying that you are at his mercy should he decide to make it his business to stalk you in his S.U.V. next time around.

If you are extraordinarily lucky, a judge will throw this out. Good luck.


Oh, and BTW, thank you for reminder # 1,010,445 of why I left the police state of the People's Demoratik Kommunewealth of Massachews***s.

I'm very grateful that the cops that I know here in WA state have the guts to at least identify themselves like honorable men and women. They don't hide in unmarked personal vehicles and stalk people like twisted little control freaks. It is very refreshing.

 

[brownie0486]

Duncan,

By Devonai's own admission, the cop didn't have time to ID himself before he pulled away.

Could not agree with you more on Mass. though.

Brownie

 

[CZ-75]

As to the spelling, it's a big deal here on a forum? I didn't know I was in a spelling bee here.

The common sense part is far more worrisome. Easier to sub rules and regulations for logic, I guess.


Oh, and I thought you loved MA, with its high incomes (to pay high taxes) and great healthcare and eductional institutions, never mind that the LEOs get cool SMGs to enforce their will.

 

[Graystar]

If the courier had not run the red lights [ endangerment to the public ], he may have escaped with no ticket at all.

The courier could have stopped at the red lights and waited like normal, watching the driver of the following car for signs of egress at the light before fracturing the mv laws was necessary.

You are not appreciating the gravity of the situation. Put yourself in his place. You drive to a business to pick up lots of money (something you do on a regular basis) and some car starts following you from the parking lot. There was no reason at all to assume that it was a cop. I think it would be insane to let that car get so close that they would be able to shoot you through your window. I would have done the same exact thing. My life is worth too much to me to take gambles like that.

 

[brownie0486]

And what logic would that be?

Would that be because he was found to be a JBT in your mind and he is automatically in the wrong here?

Right, theres some logic to that I suppose somewhere.

Don't care to expound on your assumptions about not producing ID after the last post? Just fluff that over and ignore it after being made aware of the posters own comments which went against one of your contentions as to why he was a JBT. Can't come up with something that makes sense so ignore the facts and continue to play word games.

Ya, thats the way to keep the JBT theory alive and well without addressing the real issues hey?

Brownie

 

[Intune]

"He didn't have them, instead choosing to use aggressive and intimidating driving to try and get me to stop."

That's enough for me to do exactly what you did. In fact, I have.

On or about Easter Sunday, 1994 my wife and our two children were coming home from church on Briley pkwy. We are in the rt lane and traffic is heavy. The car in front of me is going less than the 55 posted speed limit & I see a break in the left lane traffic so I signal & change lanes. HOOOONNNKKK!!! Oops, I have just cut a car off. I pull back into the rt lane and do one of those "oops, I'm sorry" waves and mouth "sorry" to the young man & woman in the car. He suddenly swoops right in front of me and then SLAMS on his brakes!!! Now a Park Ave is not exactly a small car but the only way I avoided ramming him in the rear was to go in the emergency lane to the right. Now he is right on my tail and flashing his lights. At times I can't even see his lights because he is right on my bumper. I slow to 30 mph in hopes that this guy will go around me. Nope, on my bumper. I speed up to 55 & he's still on my tail but now he's holding up some kind of badge to his windshield & motioning me to pull over. Yeah, right. We have no cell phone & are about .5 mile from house. I can either go to a shopping center parking lot with a lot of witnesses & hope that this guy is really a cop or go to my house and pull into the garage & close it before he can come in. The latter is what I do. My wife gets on phone to 911 and I have the Mossberg 500 when the doorbell rings. "Open the door, Metro Police!" he says. "Not a chance after your actions." I reply. "You're only gonna make it worse on yourself if you don't open the door. I just want to talk to you." He yells. I said, "We're talking right now so say what you need to say. My wife is on the phone with 911 and the police are on their way. If you're a real cop then we'll find out when uniformed officers arrive in marked cars. I am NOT opening this door to you after endangering my family like you did. "YOU CUT ME OFF!" He yells, "you're in BIG trouble" and goes back to his car.

A few minutes later there is a knock on the door and I look out to see two uniformed officers and four marked cars in our cul-de-sac. I put the gun away, open the door & go outside. He is a real cop, I apologize, he says "too late," the other ones talk to him a long time but he comes over & gives me a ticket for reckless driving & a couple of other violations that I can't recall. I asked one of the uniforms if I could press my own charges against the officer. He took me to the side & said "sure" but then explained what he would do in that situation. I need to look at the ticket to see all the violations he listed, you see, I still have the ticket because I never went to court. I know a Major in the Metro police who handled security for us when I was with MCA Records. One phone call. The next day I received a call from the young officer apologizing and telling me that there was no need to go to court & that he would handle it. I apologized to him also and said that I would be more careful. He then thanked me for asking Maj. ***** NOT to enter this incident in his personal jacket. No prob. If I had gone to court it would have gotten real ugly. Never hurts to have friends in high places.

 

[CZ-75]

And what logic would that be?

The kind that prevents you from thinking that shining your brights, not exiting the vehicle to ID yourself, then tailing someone for several miles is aggressive behavior designed to assuage the officer's inadequacy over his small "gun," as issued by mother nature. I'll bet he'd stop if only the dept. issued him an SMG.

 

[brownie0486]

Intune,

That quote is an assumption on his part. Perception does not necessarily become the reality based in facts. He never stated anything other than the car followed him, and thats not aggressiveness, but could certainly be intimidating.

So the quote does not become enough for his actions as stated.

Brownie

 

[CZ-75]

Don't care to expound on your assumptions about not producing ID after the last post? Just fluff that over and ignore it after being made aware of the posters own comments which went against one of your contentions as to why he was a JBT. Can't come up with something that makes sense so ignore the facts and continue to play word games.

So, how long does it take an officer to exit his vehicle and ID himself? Seems this takes less time than looking for plates, driver description, and dept. markings. Seems like I'm not the one playing games and making assumptions - unless the officer couldn't find the door handle or was finishing his doughnut first.

 

[keithernTN]

Why didn't the police officer make Devonai pull over when he ran the red lights? This makes no sense. I don't know what this cop was doing but it wasn't his job.

 

[KMKeller]

Devonai - In the initial interaction, how close did the officer get to your vehicle before he came to a stop? Was he close enough that you couldn't get your door open if you needed to?

 

[brownie0486]

How about he was on the radio with dispatch running the plate? Oh, thats right, you wouldn't think of that would you? Instead you gotta make the doughnut jokes. More nonsense from a JBT hater.

How long does it take you to look at a vehicle and see it has no markings? What a second, if that? Again, you WANT the cop to have done something wrong so he has in your mind, which of course isn't very objective is it?

But by Devonai's own admission, he didn't hang around long enough, you keep ignoring that to suit your needs here which again goes toward the JBT attitude you carry toward LE in general.


keithernTN : you shoudl read the thread, then it would mke sense why no lights and siren. Hint--he was in a privately owned vehicle. Does your personal vehicle have these things? I know muine doesn't.

Brownie

 

[bogie]

Brownie, just one question...

When was the last time you were in your POV, wearing civies, and pulled someone over to give them a ticket?

 

[bogie]

Oh yeah - and were you moonlighting at the time?

 

[keithernTN]

brownie0486

Yep read the thread, I saw he had no lights or siren.

The officer should have pulled alongside with interior light on revealing his uniform, Devonai was only going 30 mph and slowed to 25 mph at the intersections he ran. If the officer had no means of making him pull over he should have called for backup they always do that anyway in my town. The whole reason for the incident was the officers failure to identify himself.