Bad LEO encounter, need advice please

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bogie:

I wasn't aware the thread mentioned anything about the guy following him to give him a ticket on the road. He got the ticket back at the lot. Now that you mention it, I don't know why he had a ticket book with him unless he writes tickets as a course of his duties at the mall.

But to answer your question: I didn't carry a ticket book in my POV.

I have however pulled over a few drunks before they killed someone in my POV and had them wait for a uniformed officer to arrive after taking the keys from the ignition. I always carried a com so would call it in.

Brownie
 
"That quote is an assumption on his part. Perception does not necessarily become the reality based in facts. He never stated anything other than the car followed him, and thats not aggressiveness, but could certainly be intimidating.

So the quote does not become enough for his actions as stated.

Brownie"



Sure it does. It was HIS reality at the time. Especially after he broke the law running red lights and this mysterious person is still on his butt? The fact that red & blues DIDN'T come on after these actions would indicate a BAD GUY on one's tail! Eh?
 
Was told by our instructor (a CHP) in our traffic block you either:

(a) Chew the guy out and let it go;
(b) Be professional and issue a citation;

Never were we to do both during the same vehicle stop. In the first situation, the guy may be pissed, but he figures he didn't get a cite. In the second, he gets a cite and if he complains, you were professional and within the course and scope of your duties.

Now, this guy did both and it sounds like an IA beef to me on the basis of unprofessional conduct.
 
I can agree with that.

But running the red light was due to being tailed. The running of the light was brought about by being followed, not aggressively attempting to pull him over.

As stated earlier, if the cops car had been aggressively attempting a stop or block then the action would be justified. Otherwise an overreaction until something can be articulated by him about actions and not some perception on his part about what might be happening.

You base your prudent decisions on observed/known facts not hypotheticals or worst case scenarios which play in your head.

Brownie
 
4v50 Gary :

Agreed and stated as much earlier. The cop pulled a bonehead by the A$$ chewing and ticket.

Good advice by the CHP and one I followed regularly while on the roads.

Brownie
 
The officer should have pulled alongside with interior light on revealing his uniform,
Click to expand...
...and then perhaps he should have painted a bullseye on his chest too as all that would make him a perfect target if the unknown occupant of the suspecious vehicle he was following was armed (he was) and was a bad guy determined to hurt him (he wasn't). The "what if's" go both ways, never forget that. >>just a point I wanted to interject<<

I think this thread has run its course. There has been some good information and questions posted. All points of argument have been reached and are now being rehashed. Those who won't take the answer won't take it in 5 more pages. We each have our own experiences and beliefs. Some people are open minded, some less so. (agree with gary on a & b)

All the best
 
The officer pulled his SUV to within three feet of my driver's door. Like I said, he was facing me perpendicularly with the lights directly in my face. I could not see the plates at all. That's why I started moving to a better lit part of the lot. It was then that I was able to confirm that it had civilian plates.

I give myself a B- for this incident. I know I could have performed better. My regional manager gave me an F. I'm suspended without pay until the results of the court hearing, i.e. in 6-8 months.

My supervisor is 100% on my side on this one, but he's not the final say, the regional manager is. Guess which one actually does courier work? The manager's biggest beef is that I didn't immediately proceed to the local police department. My assertion that calling my dispatcher and having her call the local PD for me was at least as good of an idea. In reality I didn't know where the PD was located (this town is 40 miles from Beverly). No excuse? Maybe. I did the best I could at the time, trying to juggle a standard transmission, a cell phone, and a healthy dose of adrenaline. The fact of the matter is that the dispatcher is in a much better place to explain the situation to the police over the phone.


Here's another aspect to the situation. My regional manager was furious that I did not inform the officer that I was armed. I was adhering to my standard personal policy of never revealing that I'm armed unless an officer asks, or I believe I'm about to be frisked/arrested (which thankfully has never happened). If the officer had let me explain the nature of my work, it would have become obvious. But like I said, he was only interested in chewing me out and not in anything I had to say. It didn't seem like such a good idea to say to a cop, who is an inch away from my face an yelling at me, "oh, by the way, I have an LTC and I'm armed."

Massachusetts has no requirement to inform an officer that you're armed. Good, bad, or idiotic I was within my rights.
 
Within 3 feet? Frankly boys, I don't give a rat's behind who is in the car, if someone pulls up bumper to my door and headlights on, the red flags are popping up all over the place. What was Devonai supposed to do? Wait until the perp got out of the car and shot him? The time it would take for the officer to identify himself is pretty much the same amount of time it would take for a perp to shoot Devonai. If the cop wanted to speak to him, he should've pulled around behind so Devonai could see him get out of the car and see the uniform, badge, whatever.

Theebadone - ...and then perhaps he should have painted a bullseye on his chest too as all that would make him a perfect target if the unknown occupant of the suspecious vehicle he was following was armed (he was) and was a bad guy determined to hurt him

That was EXACTLY the predicament the officer put Devonai in from the beginning. Truck to the door, headlights on, bullseye in the making.

Sounds to me like the officer intended to intimidate Devonai and then got ticked off when he did. The officer initiated the incident from the word go.
 
Most officers initiate an action based on some form of abnormal behaviour. His was the screatching of tires.

It's the nature of the job don't you know?

Actually, if it were me I would have stood the ground in lieu of getting into a vehicle where I was more vulnerable while entering. That could have been the time he BG made a move [ if it was a BG ].

On another note, Devonai : I am sorry to hear you have been suspended and do not agree with the suspension by your regional manager. The actions do not really fit a suspension in my view based on this one incident.

I'd connect with an atty about the job situation first before I got one involved in the court action.

Though it may have appeared I was on your "case", I wasn't sir. I call em the way I see em, as stated both of you made mistakes. As an aside, I would question the officers leaving the private property if he was on detail there. Hint--in Ma. it is a no no to leave your post. Look into it, you may be pleasantly surprised that all charges are dropped if he bugged out against policy. They may call it a wash, you get your job back [ it's then been settled ] and you have learned a lesson the hard way which will make the next time easier to discern relative your actions or reactions to outside stimuli.

Brownie
 
I just spoke with a lawyer, who was nice enough to give me ten minutes of his time over the phone.

He does believe that I have a case, and that if I play my cards right I can get the violations thrown out. He emphatically recommended against filing a complaint against the officer until the results of the magistrate hearing.

If the magistrate hearing rules against me, I can request a bench trial. This is where I can really get into the guts of this case, and take my time explaining my motivations and mindset during the incident.

If it comes down to the bench trial, I will try like hell to come up with the money to put the lawyer on retainer. Let's just say it's about as much as a new Bushmaster XM-15.

Now I just have to photocopy the ticket, mail it in, and go down to the unemployment office. :( :( :(

Brownie: Thank you for your sentiments and feedback. I hold no one at fault for being hard on me. How am I supposed to learn anything otherwise?
 
I only read a third of the thread, I do not know if someone covered this, but if running red lights was dangerous why did the cop do it?

On most roads you can see far enough at thirty miles an hour to make sure its clear, I do not think anyone was endangered.
 
Here in Ma. they can and do perform details in their POV on private property.

Not always, but often enough it is an accepted practice in some locales.

I'd spent the money to have an atty ask for the dept's policy [ through FOIA ] on leaving a paid detail. If they have a policy at all, it probably would work in your favor. You may find you don't need to go to court at all if he broke a written policy.

If it were me, I'd use that angle to nip this in the bud before any court action, and be on my way back to work sooner rather than later.

If it goes to court, make sure you have the atty ask the dept for their policies and procedures on details.

Brownie
 
Brownie - good call on determining what the department's policy is. That is without a doubt the best first step you can take Devonai.
 
Brownie is giving some good advice. See if you can nip this thing now that all parties have calmed down. About the lost wages... :( I would seek employment from your co's main competitor. They may support their employees a bit better.
 
My view is that if the officer's personal vehicle is not equipped with lights, sirens or markings that identify it as a police vehicle, it should not be used as if it did. Officer instigated a situation that he was not equipped to enter into. Should have immediately called on-duty backup in marked cars and had Devonai pulled over by someone capable of doing so safely. His not doing so escalated the situation.

Dustin, I had the same thought.
Some general questions:
Are off-duty officers moonlighting as security allowed to break traffic laws in their private vehicles?
Are officers in marked cruisers endangering public safety if they blow a red without using their lights and sirens? I remember being pulled over late one night by an officer who ran a red light while following me without using lights or sirens (I went through just as it turned yellow) and pulled me over a mile or two later. I hadn't done anything wrong and didn't get in any trouble.

Devonai probably shouldn't have run the lights unless the other vehicle attempted to whip around him.
 
Yep, some of us are just 'biased" against LEOs. After all, what other job can you behave like an ??? in and still get away with it (other than gunstore owner/clerk) - while some poor schmuck has to live with the fallout b/c the law assumes that you are honest, upstanding and the like? :barf:
 
OK I stayed out of this till I could show this thread to my wife who is a police officer. She has a couple of questions.

1. Can a police officer in your jurisdiction make a traffic stop in his POV?

2. Are there police style lights on his POV? Is this legal?

3. and finally, why the heck did you not ask to speak to a supervisor immeaditly?(sp)


Norm
 
Was told by our instructor (a CHP) in our traffic block you either:

(a) Chew the guy out and let it go;
(b) Be professional and issue a citation;

Never were we to do both during the same vehicle stop. In the first situation, the guy may be pissed, but he figures he didn't get a cite. In the second, he gets a cite and if he complains, you were professional and within the course and scope of your duties.
Click to expand...

In other words, it's ok to be rude and unprofessional as long as you don't make official record of it, that way there's no way you can really get in trouble for your conduct. Cute.

Reminds me of a local small PD I used to work for. This little city's curfew ordinance got overturned by the courts. That didn't stop the Chief, though. Officers were instructed to enforce the curfew, just not write any tickets for it. That way anyone who was contacted did not have a venue to challenge the officer's actions in enforcing the curfew. By enforcing, I mean: contacting kids who were out late, field interrogating them, recording the FI on little cards, calling parents, and transporting home. Just no cite.
 
Devonai:

There are some people who are accountants, but shouldn't be. Ditto for doctors, lawyers, engineers and truck drivers. This dictum most certainly applies, with equal, if not greater force, to police.
 
Thankfully, cops 'round here seem to be able to be polite and professional whether they issue a citation or not.
 
deanf: chewing the guy out doesn't mean calling him names, behaving rudely or what-not. It's a dressing down. Now, you knew someone from the CHP would want us to be rude, didn't you?
 
4v50 please note this relevant portion of your post:

(a) Chew the guy out and let it go;
(b) Be professional and issue a citation;

Never were we to do both during the same vehicle stop.
Click to expand...

It's that last sentence. "Never were we to do both . . ." if a and b are your only choices, and you choose a, then logic dictates that a chewing out must be unprofessioinal, since "never were we to do both . . ." excludes professional conduct if you choose a.

I'm not saying this is the way you or even most officers conduct themselves, just pointing out a little contradiction.

A related question: why would you choose just a chewing out over writing a cite?
 
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