Bad Shots

[Dave A]

I don't where to post this comment/question but I will try it here. Why are cops such poor shots? I understand that they are shooting in high stress situations but don't they train for this? An absurd number of shots will be fired, sometimes by more than one cop, and only one or two shots will hit the bad guy.

 

[JohnKSa]

It's hard to hit something with a pistol.

It's harder to hit something in low light.

It's even harder to hit something that's moving.

It's harder still to hit something if you're moving.

It's even harder than that to hit something when someone's shooting at you.

Put them all together and if you only shoot a couple of times a year, throw in some luck, and you will likely make a hit every third shot at close range. If the range stretches, your hit ratio will drop.

If you are skilled, or the range is very close you might do a little better.

I don't understand why people think this is a "cop" problem. Go to a local pistol range and you can see people, standing still, with ideal lighting conditions, under zero stress, and still barely able to make hits on stationary human-sized targets when the range is just a few feet.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

It's hard to hit something with a pistol.

It's harder to hit something in low light.

It's even harder to hit something that's moving.

It's harder still to hit something if you're moving.

It's even harder than that to hit something when someone's shooting at you.

Put them all together and if you only shoot a couple of times a year, throw in some luck, and you will likely make a hit every third shot at close range. If the range stretches, your hit ratio will drop.

If you are skilled, or the range is very close you might do a little better.

I don't understand why people think this is a "cop" problem. Go to a local pistol range and you can see people, standing still, with ideal lighting conditions, under zero stress, and still barely able to make hits on stationary human-sized targets when the range is just a few feet.

^^ I've seen those people John, They're the reason I shoot at a club now that you need to qualify to get on. Jesus those people scare me.



To answer the OP. Shooting under pressure is hard. A simple example is to have someone scream at you while you're shooting. This is a very minimal stimulus as far as stimuli are concerned and yet its considerably more difficult to shoot under those circumstances. Add in targets that shoot back and you've got a difficult situation. I do believe though that officers should probably have to qualify more often than they do. Just like as in the civilian world, training is everything.

 

[LocoGringo]

Also, cops don't train nearly as much as you probably think they do. I work with a lot of former police officers and they may qualify twice a year shooting maybe 50 rounds for qualification. If they don't train on their own, that's all they get from the department. Small town cops are probably even worse. That's not NEARLY enough to be proficient. Plus, many cops aren't "gun people" and aren't nearly as interested in shooting/guns as people probably think.

I'd say the average user on this forum is more skilled at shooting than the average cop on the street. That's just a guess on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it's true.

Just because someone may carry a gun daily, doesn't mean they are proficient with it. How many drivers are out there who drive daily and are still terrible drivers?

 

[lemaymiami]

Although most think that firearms are the most important part of a part of an officer's job most will go an entire career and never fire a single shot on the street...
I've worked with detectives that to be reminded to bring their sidearms when we left the station to go somewhere....
A few will be very proficient with weapons -most will barely qualify and are so reluctant to actually use gun that they'll be the last to shoot when they're in that once in a lifetime situation.
Of course that's not how cops are shown on TV or in the movies so there's a real disconnect between image and reality....

Besides, when you're scared to death in a sudden confrontation just drawing and shooting without making a mistake is really a lot harder than you'd guess (at least it was for me...).

 

[MedWheeler]

I remember training at night, while shooting at moving targets, while I was moving, and with a patrol car parked directly behind me with its blue strobes pulsing all around and its siren screaming.

My hit ratio suffered dramatically when compared to simple marksmanship shoots.

Try that at the range...

 

[bikerdoc]

If we are answering the why I blame leadership.
The brass knows this is a problem yet they dont address it. Most of todays police problems can be solved with better leadership, selection, and training
I was on the job up north from 71 to 90 and as a reserve down here from 99 to 09. Both sets of brass did not want to adress the issues. The word budget kept coming up.
My unscientific observation was guys that were combat vets did better than non vets. But that is such a generalization as to be statisticly meaningless.
The one incident I was involved in was over in 2 shots. This was way back in the days of the revolver.
Army experience and training took over, I got that sinking fear reaction when I recognised the threat, got focused, reacted and it was over in a few seconds. Not to say I didnt get the shakes and puke afterward cause I did.
I wrote an after action report in support of stress training and it fell on deaf ears. Leadership fail.
On selection. They take the guys with the highest score on the test, do a background check, a cursory psycological profile, a strenth test, a board interview, and send them to the academy. My academy was a live in at State Police barracks in Framingham Mass. 20% drop out rate from the stress. How about a pre academy stress selection course so those slots dont go unfilled. Weed out the unsuited, unmotivated, uninterested.
On training. Training is nothing more the learning your craft. It should be lifelong and continious. Sadly only a few departments spend the kind of money needed to keep officers up to date with the latest techniques and procedures, even fewer require repeated review of important topics.
Just a rant from old guy looking in the rear view mirror of my life.

 

[Kleanbore]

Why are cops such poor shots?

Compared to whom?

How would you do under like circumstances?

 

[Ed4032]

Apparently the Garland Traffic Cops practice alot...

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

^heh heh heh... They sure do.

 

[g.willikers]

Jeff Cooper once said that we're living in the age of the common man, and he's proving to be all too common.
It seems that talent greatly trails rhetoric.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

There are 2 things I think.

1. Just because you're a police officer and carry a firearm everyday, does not in any way automatically mean that you are any more proficient with it than the average citizen. I work with officers every single day and most of them aren't gun guys like we are here. I would be that we all put many more rounds down range each year than the average LEO.

2. Even if they all were gun guys who practiced weekly and were expert marksmen, it doesn't mean a darn thing when you're hunkered down behind a car door, taking fire.

Unless you've ever had someone shooting back at you, you have no idea. And I've never had anyone shooting at me, so I will be the first to admit that I have no idea.

In those situations, marksmanship is secondary. I would think that being able to function intelligently in such a stressful situation would be goal #1. Shooting perfect scores on the range doesn't make a hill of beans worth of difference if you're curled up in the fetal position scared to stick your head up.

So to answer your question, I don't think all officers are bad shots. I just think there's a hell of a lot more that goes into it than that.

 

[X-Rap]

Comments like that of the OP can often be tied to the phrase " if I can't get it done with ___
rounds"
That's not to say there aren't some shooters who can legitimately claim to be very good, even under extreme stress. I just believe that those guys are the rarity.
Take one of the more recent high profile shootings by a cop. The Garland Patrolman is reported to have shot at least 12 times, how many of those were hits? I bet his best hits were toward the end of the shooting, not because he was closer but because he had time to compose himself and do what he had trained to do.
Cops have a lot of duties, least of which is shooting, I think they should take it upon themselves to be proficient as should their employers but even then there will be situations that you just won't be prepared for.

 

[g.willikers]

That's not to say there aren't some shooters who can legitimately claim to be very good, even under extreme stress. I just believe that those guys are the rarity.

They're very good because they choose to be.
And are willing to put in the effort to be so.
Everyone who volunteers to go after the bad guys owes it to themselves and everyone else to be that good.
Kind of like how a neurosurgeon, heart specialist or airline pilot is expected to be.

 

[bikerdoc]

The Garland Patrolman is reported to have shot at least 12 times, how many of those were hits? I bet his best hits were toward the end of the shooting, not because he was closer but because he had time to compose himself and do what he had trained to do.

That is a telling statement, suppressing fire stops incoming fire , and composing yourself leads to hits

 

[1911 guy]

While the stats on police accuracy get thrown around a lot, I'm willing to bet that the stats on CCW shootings are similar, as well as most military. Adding stress into a situation degrades performance. Period. Training can an will minimize the impact, but cannot eliminate it.

 

[Jim Watson]

I figure the proportion of shooting enthusiasts in police departments is about the same as in the general population, to a close order of magnitude.

Shooting is not only just a small fraction of The Job, it is something that a cop is not rewarded for. Shoot it out with Fidel Urbina (latest addition to the Ten Most Wanted) and he will find himself investigated by the agency, the Justice Department, and all manner of professional apologists for criminals. Read about it in the news every week or so.

Why are cops such poor shots?

Compared to whom?

How would you do under like circumstances?

On the range, I am superior. I am one of the few "civilians" in a police league operating under IDPAish procedures. I normally finish ahead of the LEOs, as do the other "civilians." Note that these officers are self selected, they attend because they want to do the work, not because they are assigned. And it helps, many of them have improved markedly.

How would I react if shot back at? I don't know.
How would they react if shot back at? I don't know that, either. Do they?

 

[tuj]

So I read a lot from Jim Cirillo of the NYPD who was probably in more shootouts than probably anyone outside the military. He selected men for his squad, which was going into direct armed confrontation, by a number of factors, but one of which included competition shooting. He found that the competition shooters were:

-better shots
-better shots under pressure

He also looked for family men, because he felt those guys had more of a 'will to survive' if you will.

I think I will re-echo what has already been said, which is that the number of competition shooters in the police is, on average probably about equal to that of the general population (or maybe a smidge higher). People's natural talent tends to fall on a bell curve, so in any given situation, only a certain percentage of any group will have the necessary skills to successfully shoot, incapacitate, and not hurt bystanders.

How many IDPA matches have you shot with multiple moving no-shoots and 1 target simulating a NYC sidewalk on a busy day?

How many matches have you shot where you were faced with two targets that were wearing body armor?

And in how many of those matches was someone shooting back?

I *love* competition shooting, and I genuinely think it will make me better under pressure should that day ever come. But I also don't delude myself.

Police have the highest responsibility, which is to wield lethal power lawfully and quickly but also to not injure or kill the public.

Again, how many matches have you shot with berms around the back and sides? All of them?? We simply don't think about the background aside from checking before we shoot if it is safe. And I think this probably plays out in the actions of police, who are admittedly under the pressure of losing their life.

So I don't think it is fair to say police are bad shots. Some are. Some aren't. Only a small % ever shoots.

 

[Blue Thunder]

I have been shooting competition since the early 1990's and in the last 6 years have taken 5 Shoot to Survive classes from a couple of the top trainers out there. I have also attend 2 alumni classes which are a fraction of the cost of the two day courses. If you have not checked lately the prices of the most popular 2 day classes has dropped as there are a lot more trainers out there now. My competition shooting helped me greatly in the Shoot to Survive classes all of which included moving targets and moving shooters, from out in the open to from concealment. They are also 360 degree classes not on square ranges with no more than 10 shooters on the line at a time. You are also expected to come to the range in CCW ready to shoot after signing the waivers. I have been a little lax in the last year as I was building my retirement villa and that is now complete and still unpacking. I will be looking to take another couple of alumni courses soon.

 

[IlikeSA]

I would say they are a bit better than our military. We averaged 250,000 rounds per enemy casualty in the war on terror.

http://jonathanturley.org/2011/01/10/gao-u-s-has-fired-250000-rounds-for-every-insurgent-killed/

It boils down to practice. Law enforcement involves a lot more than shooting. There are new policies, procedures, legal studies, and additional things to train on as well. In addition, training days are limited, because most departments are run rather tight on personnel, so an officer in training is probably not an officer on the street, therefore making the shift short in personnel.

 

[Jeff White]

I would say they are a bit better than our military. We averaged 250,000 rounds per enemy casualty in the war on terror.

The military uses suppressive fire and fires at area targets. You cannot relate that number to any kind of marksmanship skill.

In addition, training days are limited, because most departments are run rather tight on personnel, so an officer in training is probably not an officer on the street, therefore making the shift short in personnel.

The biggest cost of training is the overtime. You pay the officers who are training overtime and if the training is during their regularly scheduled shift, you pay other officers overtime to cover.

No one, not Tier One military units or well funded Police Tactical Units has enough money to train. Few private citizens have enough money to train. Those private citizens who shoot a lot in competition or just for fun, are shooting for recreation and it's paid for with expendable income. I doubt many hobby shooter could afford the hobby if they had to pay their salary at the overtime rate to practice or shoot in a match.

 

[herrwalther]

Most police departments only have enough money in the budget to qualify officers once maybe twice a year. For many officers that is the only time they get to fire their duty weapon with their duty load. If you are lucky enough to be in a department that lets you practice off duty you might get more practice, but haven't heard of many of those. Can be a rather large insurance nightmare for the department.

 

[Coyote3855]

I'm friends with an officer who is an IPSC Grand Master. I understand competition doesn't totally prepare you for an armed encounter on the street. But he's definitely a "gun guy," one hell of a shot with a 1911, and exactly the person I'd want watching my back.

True that other policemen of my acquaintance shoot only to qualify and consider their handguns just another burdensome piece of equipment like handcuffs and the ticket book.

 

[g.willikers]

Just because an employer can't or won't provide enough training doesn't mean the individual can't pursue it on their own.
No reason to be satisfied with being mediocre, what ever the profession.

 

[bikerdoc]

Just because an employer can't or won't provide enough training doesn't mean the individual can't pursue it on their own.
No reason to be satisfied with being mediocre, what ever the profession.

That is an excellent point.
Our deal back in the day was we practiced on our own time at our range, but the dept supplied the ammo.
Range officer/Instuctor sent a monthly report to the Dep. Chief each month of those that came in and ammunition issued.