the 22 junkie
Member
On the topic of straw purchases, is it considered a straw purchase if my dad bought a rifle for me (under legal buying age for long guns)?
Bad situation at the gun shop today
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asiparks
Member
Quote:
What was it about him having his gun in the waistband that got him asked to leave by the clerk at the range?
Quote:
Thug with a gun in the waistband? Thats someone who shouldnt have a gun.
>>>rant on
Most of the ranges here strongly prefer that your weapon is cased and unloaded when you enter, CCW bearer or not. It was certainly not the polite thing to do, but perhaps it's his first time at a range and he doesn't know better. Why not politely explain the rules to him, he might have apologized, agreed to the rules and become a regular.
As for not being allowed a gun- says who exactly ? That could be me, popping out to get a pint of milk. I often will just pop my pistol in my waistband behind my hip for short trips. I'm not trying to look bad-arsed either, I just have an unfortunate, uncheery looking face with an assortment of characterful scars, I wear baggy jeans, sneakers and an old army jacket. So should my appearance disqualify me from owning a gun ? I should bloody well hope not.
<<<rant off
just out of interest, PP which store was it ?
What was it about him having his gun in the waistband that got him asked to leave by the clerk at the range?
Quote:
Thug with a gun in the waistband? Thats someone who shouldnt have a gun.
>>>rant on
Most of the ranges here strongly prefer that your weapon is cased and unloaded when you enter, CCW bearer or not. It was certainly not the polite thing to do, but perhaps it's his first time at a range and he doesn't know better. Why not politely explain the rules to him, he might have apologized, agreed to the rules and become a regular.
As for not being allowed a gun- says who exactly ? That could be me, popping out to get a pint of milk. I often will just pop my pistol in my waistband behind my hip for short trips. I'm not trying to look bad-arsed either, I just have an unfortunate, uncheery looking face with an assortment of characterful scars, I wear baggy jeans, sneakers and an old army jacket. So should my appearance disqualify me from owning a gun ? I should bloody well hope not.
<<<rant off
just out of interest, PP which store was it ?
AmbulanceDriver
Member
*heh*
Parks, I was about to ask PP the same question. I've lived in P-town for almost 20 years, and have seen quite the decline over that time. And I've seen some *real* idiots walking into several different gun shops here in portland and the surrounding areas....
Parks, I was about to ask PP the same question. I've lived in P-town for almost 20 years, and have seen quite the decline over that time. And I've seen some *real* idiots walking into several different gun shops here in portland and the surrounding areas....
Foxtrot427
Member
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- Jan 24, 2006
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- 512
The guy obviously had something about him. Some thug comes in with a pistol in his pants that are probably barely hanging on his thighs. Its a case by case thing. I can just picture some "gangster" come in, whips a gun out of his baggy jeans, hold it sideways, etc. He probably doesnt have it for the right reasions. And he was just out of prison so the guy was obviously right to do what he did. Sure you wouldnt do that to some regular guy who obviously was new to shooting and innocent.
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Written by Ditra
I tend to doubt that the permit holder would be willing to go through with a straw purchase,especialy since the CT registration system could easily catch up with him if his buddy ever used the gun, or got caught with it.
That does sound suspicious. Did the Permit holder examin the gun at all, or just his associate? Do think it is possible that he was trying to show his buddy the new piece he was buying? What shop was this in?
I tend to doubt that the permit holder would be willing to go through with a straw purchase,especialy since the CT registration system could easily catch up with him if his buddy ever used the gun, or got caught with it.
That does sound suspicious. Did the Permit holder examin the gun at all, or just his associate? Do think it is possible that he was trying to show his buddy the new piece he was buying? What shop was this in?
asiparks
Member
well that's mighty descriptive Foxtrot, but , basically as you said, that's how you would imagine it....
Whether or not he had a criminal record was at the time of the event, unknown.
Now my trousers are as close to my waist as my belly will reasonably allow, but can I ask you, do you think that a person should be denied the right to own firearms because you don't like the way they look ?
About a year and a half ago I was at a local range and there was a black gentleman was shooting a few lanes down from me. Oversized jeans, expensive sneakers, athletic basketball vest lots of jewellery and tattoos. Perhaps you would call him a "gang banger" type. I couldn't see if he was shooting "gangsta" style, but he was doing quite well.
I was shooting my 4" S&W 29, making some rather impressive noise, and after I'd shoot a couple of cylinders, the guy came over to ask what I was shooting. We struck up a conversation, turns out he works at the same company as I do, as a creative director, (6000 employees so we hadn't met before), so clearly another dangerous thug that you would do well to disarm, before his "urban" appearance causes some unspeakable crime
Whether or not he had a criminal record was at the time of the event, unknown.Now my trousers are as close to my waist as my belly will reasonably allow, but can I ask you, do you think that a person should be denied the right to own firearms because you don't like the way they look ?
About a year and a half ago I was at a local range and there was a black gentleman was shooting a few lanes down from me. Oversized jeans, expensive sneakers, athletic basketball vest lots of jewellery and tattoos. Perhaps you would call him a "gang banger" type. I couldn't see if he was shooting "gangsta" style, but he was doing quite well.
I was shooting my 4" S&W 29, making some rather impressive noise, and after I'd shoot a couple of cylinders, the guy came over to ask what I was shooting. We struck up a conversation, turns out he works at the same company as I do, as a creative director, (6000 employees so we hadn't met before), so clearly another dangerous thug that you would do well to disarm, before his "urban" appearance causes some unspeakable crime
Strings
Member
>What was it about him having his gun in the waistband that got him asked to leave by the clerk at the range?<
Several have tried to answer this, and have gotten it wrong on all counts...
The issue was that he was in Wisconsin, where we have NO form of CCW...
Several have tried to answer this, and have gotten it wrong on all counts...
The issue was that he was in Wisconsin, where we have NO form of CCW...
Robert Hairless
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- Oct 11, 2003
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- 3,983
asiparks:
I don't want to provoke an argument with you, only to suggest that maybe there are some other factors that might be worth considering.
Of course you're absolutely right: people shouldn't be judged by their appearance. Someone who enjoys dressing like a gangster has a perfect right to do so and his fashion sense doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his character, nor does it necessarily predict his behavior. He might be true, kind, gentle, and with an awfully sweet nature.
But dressing like a gangster does project an image and either the person who dresses that way doesn't understand the implications of that image or he does understand it and intends to imply what the image communicates. Your subject in this sentence isn't clear to me: "We struck up a conversation, turns out he works at the same company as I do, as a creative director,..." If you're the creative director, you know that already: it's your business. If he's the creative director, he knows it: it's his business. So if he dresses like a gangster, it seems reasonable to think that he understands the image he projects, understands that the image implies he is a gangster, and wants strangers to react as if he is a gangster and a threat.
That's his right, I think, but he shouldn't be disappointed when people respond to him in the way he has manipulated them to respond. In fact, he should be flattered when his image makes people respond as if he is a gangster: it's evidence that he has communicated clearly how he wants them to respond. It's a negative image; he created it for himself; he can judge his creation successful when people treat him negatively.
For the rest of us, a key factor in survival is to receive the messages transmitted by other people we encounter in our daily life. If your new found friend in his gangster costume saunters towards someone on a lonely street, and if that person is a good person with a tactical sense, the tactically aware person will try to avoid a potentially dangerous encounter while preparing to defend himself should things turn bad. If, however, your friend walks his gangster costume down the wrong street at the wrong time and happens to encounter some real gangsters, he might receive the greatest possible tribute to the success of his act. They're real; he isn't; someone--probably your friend--might get hurt, and it might not help that he's only dressed in a fashion that he likes.
People who intentionally project a threatening appearance know, or should know, that they trigger defensive responses in other people. There's nothing wrong with people who respond to threats defensively. There's something very wrong with people who intentionally provoke threat responses. Someone who intentionally scares people should be prepared for them to behave like scared people.
I don't want to provoke an argument with you, only to suggest that maybe there are some other factors that might be worth considering.
Of course you're absolutely right: people shouldn't be judged by their appearance. Someone who enjoys dressing like a gangster has a perfect right to do so and his fashion sense doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his character, nor does it necessarily predict his behavior. He might be true, kind, gentle, and with an awfully sweet nature.
But dressing like a gangster does project an image and either the person who dresses that way doesn't understand the implications of that image or he does understand it and intends to imply what the image communicates. Your subject in this sentence isn't clear to me: "We struck up a conversation, turns out he works at the same company as I do, as a creative director,..." If you're the creative director, you know that already: it's your business. If he's the creative director, he knows it: it's his business. So if he dresses like a gangster, it seems reasonable to think that he understands the image he projects, understands that the image implies he is a gangster, and wants strangers to react as if he is a gangster and a threat.
That's his right, I think, but he shouldn't be disappointed when people respond to him in the way he has manipulated them to respond. In fact, he should be flattered when his image makes people respond as if he is a gangster: it's evidence that he has communicated clearly how he wants them to respond. It's a negative image; he created it for himself; he can judge his creation successful when people treat him negatively.
For the rest of us, a key factor in survival is to receive the messages transmitted by other people we encounter in our daily life. If your new found friend in his gangster costume saunters towards someone on a lonely street, and if that person is a good person with a tactical sense, the tactically aware person will try to avoid a potentially dangerous encounter while preparing to defend himself should things turn bad. If, however, your friend walks his gangster costume down the wrong street at the wrong time and happens to encounter some real gangsters, he might receive the greatest possible tribute to the success of his act. They're real; he isn't; someone--probably your friend--might get hurt, and it might not help that he's only dressed in a fashion that he likes.
People who intentionally project a threatening appearance know, or should know, that they trigger defensive responses in other people. There's nothing wrong with people who respond to threats defensively. There's something very wrong with people who intentionally provoke threat responses. Someone who intentionally scares people should be prepared for them to behave like scared people.
asiparks
Member
I don't completely disagree with you Mr Hairless, but also believe that many truly bad guys, the really dangerous ones, do not telegraph their intentions through their dress or actions, but look just like you or I or Mr Smith from down the street. So I'm with you on situational awareness, but I based it on body language and mannerisms, not appearance....
"So if he dresses like a gangster, it seems reasonable to think that he understands the image he projects, understands that the image implies he is a gangster, and wants strangers to react as if he is a gangster and a threat." Indeed people identify and communicate details about themselves through the way they dress, but just like verbal communication, what is said and what is heard can be quite different, especially when seen from a different cultural, or generational, point of view. He doesn't see himself as a gangster, he is not trying to project the image of one, or have people react in a negative way. He is just fitting in socially with his peers and identifying himself as a fan of Hip hop something he regards as having been hijacked by an unsavoury element that like to celebrate things that most people wouldn't generally be proud of.
If members of this board were asked to describe in detail,or draw a picture of a gangster, how much commonality there would be, and how much of that would be based on a character they been exposed to in the media as opposed to people they've actually met...
If you saw my 220lb, shaved head self, wearing baggy jeans, sneakers and camo jkt bowling towards you, you might well think-"hmm- sketchy ", I'm just thinking "hmm-comfy" on my way to get milk. If you spoke to me, you would, of course, be delighted and charmed.
I have tried to wear suits, but I look like I'm off to court.....
"So if he dresses like a gangster, it seems reasonable to think that he understands the image he projects, understands that the image implies he is a gangster, and wants strangers to react as if he is a gangster and a threat." Indeed people identify and communicate details about themselves through the way they dress, but just like verbal communication, what is said and what is heard can be quite different, especially when seen from a different cultural, or generational, point of view. He doesn't see himself as a gangster, he is not trying to project the image of one, or have people react in a negative way. He is just fitting in socially with his peers and identifying himself as a fan of Hip hop something he regards as having been hijacked by an unsavoury element that like to celebrate things that most people wouldn't generally be proud of.
If members of this board were asked to describe in detail,or draw a picture of a gangster, how much commonality there would be, and how much of that would be based on a character they been exposed to in the media as opposed to people they've actually met...
If you saw my 220lb, shaved head self, wearing baggy jeans, sneakers and camo jkt bowling towards you, you might well think-"hmm- sketchy ", I'm just thinking "hmm-comfy" on my way to get milk. If you spoke to me, you would, of course, be delighted and charmed.
I have tried to wear suits, but I look like I'm off to court.....
Robert Hairless
Member
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- Oct 11, 2003
- Messages
- 3,983
As I said, asiparks, I didn't intend a quarrel and I'm happy that you didn't misinterpret my intention.
One of two things you said that interests me most is your statement that "So I'm with you on situational awareness, but I based it on body language and mannerisms, not appearance...." I'm not sure I understand the distinction you make between appearance and body language and mannerisms or whether such a distinction is useful. What I think you're saying is that you're alerted by people who do such things as take threatening postures, make shifting eye movements, exert furtive gestures, or exchange meaningful glances.
Perhaps those examples aren't what you might offer, but if they're close enough maybe my question won't be too far off base. Aren't they meaningful to you because of the ways you interpret them? I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't interpret them as you do, and I do think it would be foolish of you to not be concerned if they alarm you, but I don't see why it's different from or superior to reading the signals transmitted by a person's appearance.
Of course I don't mean by "appearance" a person's race or physical anomalies. What I mean is what I've been talking about and what might be clearer if I described it as something like the intentional crafting of one's appearance to transmit an image and identify it with a set of conventions.
Your friend does that intentionally and you recognize that. "He doesn't see himself as a gangster, he is not trying to project the image of one, or have people react in a negative way. He is just fitting in socially with his peers and identifying himself as a fan of Hip hop something he regards as having been hijacked by an unsavoury element that like to celebrate things that most people wouldn't generally be proud of." But in your earlier message you said "Perhaps you would call him a 'gang banger' type." Since you're the only source of information we have about him, it's certainly fair to say that he struck you that way until you talked with him and decided he wasn't.
From the way you talk about your friend it's apparent that you consider him intelligent, and for that reason I credit him with the intelligence to understand that he creates problems for himself when he adopts an image that has "been hijacked by an unsavoury element that like to celebrate things that most people wouldn't generally be proud of." Perhaps what I mean would be easier to see if we were talking about someone who dressed in an S.S. uniform, with highly polished jack boots, and wore a peaked hat with a death's head emblem on it--because he wanted to demonstrate pride in his German ancestry. I know that I've created an exaggerated comparison, but I don't think it's exaggerated too much to be useful: someone who wears the Nazi uniform transmits strong signals to other people even if he didn't intend those particular signals.
So I don't think it matters in the least--except to him, and maybe to you-- what your friend intends or what he wants to transmit by his costume. It doesn't matter because the point is how people react to your friend. If he doesn't care about that, I certainly don't. If we're talking about the way people react, what matters is what they receive.
And what we receive from the way a person presents himself in public is no less important, I think, than his body language and mannerisms. In a very practical sense it is even more important, because it's more visible at a greater distance and because it is more easily controlled. I know people (and probably you do too) who have unfortunate mannerisms and awful body language. Some people I've met whose eye movements seem decidedly shifty and other people I've met are unable to look anyone straight in the eye. I understand that there are cultures in which that is considered impolite. Maybe you've met people like them, or people who cover their mouths when they speak, or people who seem aggressive. It's hard to change such things and rarely do people adopt them as mannerisms, at least not in my own experience.
But most of us can and do control how we dress. You understand that I'm not saying that everyone should dress one way or another. What I am saying is that when we adopt the dress that identifies some group, we identify ourselves with that group. And if that group is "an unsavoury element that like to celebrate things that most people wouldn't generally be proud of," we should be prepared for most people to react to us as if we are part of that unsavoury element.
One of two things you said that interests me most is your statement that "So I'm with you on situational awareness, but I based it on body language and mannerisms, not appearance...." I'm not sure I understand the distinction you make between appearance and body language and mannerisms or whether such a distinction is useful. What I think you're saying is that you're alerted by people who do such things as take threatening postures, make shifting eye movements, exert furtive gestures, or exchange meaningful glances.
Perhaps those examples aren't what you might offer, but if they're close enough maybe my question won't be too far off base. Aren't they meaningful to you because of the ways you interpret them? I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't interpret them as you do, and I do think it would be foolish of you to not be concerned if they alarm you, but I don't see why it's different from or superior to reading the signals transmitted by a person's appearance.
Of course I don't mean by "appearance" a person's race or physical anomalies. What I mean is what I've been talking about and what might be clearer if I described it as something like the intentional crafting of one's appearance to transmit an image and identify it with a set of conventions.
Your friend does that intentionally and you recognize that. "He doesn't see himself as a gangster, he is not trying to project the image of one, or have people react in a negative way. He is just fitting in socially with his peers and identifying himself as a fan of Hip hop something he regards as having been hijacked by an unsavoury element that like to celebrate things that most people wouldn't generally be proud of." But in your earlier message you said "Perhaps you would call him a 'gang banger' type." Since you're the only source of information we have about him, it's certainly fair to say that he struck you that way until you talked with him and decided he wasn't.
From the way you talk about your friend it's apparent that you consider him intelligent, and for that reason I credit him with the intelligence to understand that he creates problems for himself when he adopts an image that has "been hijacked by an unsavoury element that like to celebrate things that most people wouldn't generally be proud of." Perhaps what I mean would be easier to see if we were talking about someone who dressed in an S.S. uniform, with highly polished jack boots, and wore a peaked hat with a death's head emblem on it--because he wanted to demonstrate pride in his German ancestry. I know that I've created an exaggerated comparison, but I don't think it's exaggerated too much to be useful: someone who wears the Nazi uniform transmits strong signals to other people even if he didn't intend those particular signals.
So I don't think it matters in the least--except to him, and maybe to you-- what your friend intends or what he wants to transmit by his costume. It doesn't matter because the point is how people react to your friend. If he doesn't care about that, I certainly don't. If we're talking about the way people react, what matters is what they receive.
And what we receive from the way a person presents himself in public is no less important, I think, than his body language and mannerisms. In a very practical sense it is even more important, because it's more visible at a greater distance and because it is more easily controlled. I know people (and probably you do too) who have unfortunate mannerisms and awful body language. Some people I've met whose eye movements seem decidedly shifty and other people I've met are unable to look anyone straight in the eye. I understand that there are cultures in which that is considered impolite. Maybe you've met people like them, or people who cover their mouths when they speak, or people who seem aggressive. It's hard to change such things and rarely do people adopt them as mannerisms, at least not in my own experience.
But most of us can and do control how we dress. You understand that I'm not saying that everyone should dress one way or another. What I am saying is that when we adopt the dress that identifies some group, we identify ourselves with that group. And if that group is "an unsavoury element that like to celebrate things that most people wouldn't generally be proud of," we should be prepared for most people to react to us as if we are part of that unsavoury element.
JoseM
Member
Delmar said:
That completely baffles me....if you were planning on robbing a store, why oh why would you do it when there is a 100% chance that the store owner is carrying?! I mean, robbing a gun store where you just know the owners (and most customers) will be carrying?!
"what cant i do with a shotgun than with a handgun illegally???
Conceal it easily.
While it is possible to conceal a sawed off shotgun with a pistol grip, it is still larger than most handguns.
There is a reason folks prefer handguns for concealment.
Conceal it easily.
While it is possible to conceal a sawed off shotgun with a pistol grip, it is still larger than most handguns.
There is a reason folks prefer handguns for concealment.
EddieCoyle
Member
I witnessed the following conversation at a gun shop/range:
Patron: Do you rent handguns?
Clerk: Yes we do.
Patron: OK. I'd like to rent one for a week please.
Patron: Do you rent handguns?
Clerk: Yes we do.
Patron: OK. I'd like to rent one for a week please.
Sinsaba
Member
When I was a kid, my brother (2 years older than I) complained to my mother about having to get a haircut. His thoughts were "well people should judge me by who I am not how I look"... to which my mother replied, "maybe they shouLd... BUT THEY DON'T!".
Big Gay Al
Member
According to ATFE, you can SELL a handgun to someone under 21 years of age, as long as it is a PRIVATE sale, and as long as they are not otherwise prohibited from owning firearms. In other words, FFL holders can't sell handguns to an 18-20 year old. But private parties can, as long as your state has no laws against it. Some do, some don't.
In other words, it does NOT have to be a gift. When I was 19, my mother bought a Ruger Police Service Six, .357 magnum for me. It was not a straw purchase as I could legally own the firearm. I just couldn't buy it from the FFL.
In other words, it does NOT have to be a gift. When I was 19, my mother bought a Ruger Police Service Six, .357 magnum for me. It was not a straw purchase as I could legally own the firearm. I just couldn't buy it from the FFL.
Monkeyleg
Member.
Eddie Coyle:
Johnny_Yuma
Member
Waistbands
Maybe the clerk shares my opinion that carrying in a waistband is foolish and unsafe and didn't want that sort of shooter at her range.
Yes, I know some of you carry in your waistband.
Johnny
Maybe the clerk shares my opinion that carrying in a waistband is foolish and unsafe and didn't want that sort of shooter at her range.
Yes, I know some of you carry in your waistband.
Johnny
Foxtrot,
How do you (or, DO you) reconcile your feelings regarding a "thug with a gun" with the Second Amendment? I realize he was a Felon since your statement indicates his in/out/in, again status but how broad does your judgement brush paint?
SatCong
How do you (or, DO you) reconcile your feelings regarding a "thug with a gun" with the Second Amendment? I realize he was a Felon since your statement indicates his in/out/in, again status but how broad does your judgement brush paint?
SatCong
Strings
Member
I'm gonna restate: the problem with the guy Monkeyleg mentioned is that it happened in Wisconsin, where there IS no legal CCW...
Ranald
Member
Yep, I've been in gunshops where certain other patrons made me real nervous by their looks/affect/actions,and been on alert status while they were there. Felt the collective sigh of relief when they left, too. Seems like those guys don't belly up and buy something, either... and so don't have the BGC run. OTOH it is likely that my "looks" on any given day off may have set off someone else's alert bells, too. Big, husky, unshaven, dressed "down" when not in uniform.
One day a short, greasy-lookin, fast talking hispanic guy was runnin his stuff in the local gunshop. I hadnt seen him there before and thought he was a bit "marginal"... then he left without buying anything... I said something to the ownber, whom I know pretty well... "Oh thats Rodriguez... he's a Federal Air Marshal, you know, flies undercover to nab potential hi-jackers and troublemakers on international flights!". So much for looks, lol.
One day a short, greasy-lookin, fast talking hispanic guy was runnin his stuff in the local gunshop. I hadnt seen him there before and thought he was a bit "marginal"... then he left without buying anything... I said something to the ownber, whom I know pretty well... "Oh thats Rodriguez... he's a Federal Air Marshal, you know, flies undercover to nab potential hi-jackers and troublemakers on international flights!". So much for looks, lol.
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