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Ball Vs. Hollow Points

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by grayhambone, Aug 22, 2011.

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  1. grayhambone

    grayhambone Member

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    I want some good opinions here. During winter months where people pile on clothes, would you rather cary ball or hollow point ammo. People pack on the clothes and with a big caliber, like a 45 acp is ball ammo the right choice? 9mm, 357 sig. Feedback on all calibers would be nice to have feedback.
    Also, has anyone had any problems with there gun not feeding square end hollow points? I've even heard of people mix and matching in a hi capacity magazine (not really just thought about it).
     
  2. kimbershot

    kimbershot Member

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    i use ball ammo all the time. 1911 was designed for it, it works, no sense reinventing the wheel. :what:
     
  3. Pyro

    Pyro Member

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    Hornady Critical Defense works great against soft barriers such as clothing, as does Corbon Powrball. The latest JHP designs take into account a clothing barrier, since it appears to be one of the major factors of whether a JHP bullet will perform as it is designed or not.

    I'd take the JHP, even if it clogs and performs as a ball it will still do the damage a ball round can do.
     
  4. wlewisiii

    wlewisiii Member

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    158 gr LSWCHP either .38 Special +P or .357 Magnum. Unless winter coats where you come from are made of Kevlar, that will do just fine summer or winter.
     
  5. Rail Driver

    Rail Driver Member

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    I use lead SWC in my 1911, HP in my Glock 9mm, and ball in my .25 BUG
     
  6. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    I'll use ball if I can pack a .75 cal 1911 or Glock.

    Yes Seventy Five caliber.

    Don't make one?

    Well then I'll stick to good JHPs then.

    Deaf
     
  7. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    45 hard ball is a poor performer when heavy clothes or barriers are encountered. Good 9mm or 357 Sig are better choices in this situation. Hollow points are prefered in all situations. We no longer live in the 1800's.
     
  8. 481

    481 Member

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    This document-

    http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/tuesday/hudgins.pdf

    -presents a mathematical model having an extraordinarily high correlation for predicting the residual velocity of a bullet after it passes through both skin and clothing (of a specified weight).

    Even heavily-layered winter clothing is highly unlikely to stop a large caliber FMJ or JHP with a correspondingly large cross-sectional presentation area.

    Using the proposed model, a .45ACP 230 gr. FMJ @ 835 fps (or an unexpanded JHP of the same weight) would experience a loss of 46 fps after passing through four layers of 8 ounce denim (as used in the FBI "heavy clothing" test protocol) and would exit that barrier with a velocity of 789 fps.

    At that velocity, a .45ACP 230 gr. FMJ is still capable of producing more than two feet of soft tissue penetration. :what:
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2011
  9. snooperman

    snooperman Member

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    The newer Core bonded ammo from the major ammo companies..

    have given us quite a few great choices in Hollowpoint ammo that will penetrate clothing and still expand adequately. Winchester Ranger, and PDX1, Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, Corbon and others have passed through several layers of clothing and more than 12" of Ballistic gel in tests performed so as to pass the FBI requirements. This new ammo is by far superior to what most of law enforcement was using 20 years ago and the good news it is available to us too. I personally carry the Winchester Ranger and Gold dot because I want the largest wound channel possible.
     
  10. PT92

    PT92 Member

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    Personally, I use ball in my 1911 with utter confidence. Yet if I am packing a 9, I will use Federal Expanding FMJ because I think that 9MM can just about match the effectiveness of the 45 with the proper load but not just regular 9mm ball FMJ (just my opinion).

    -Cheers
     
  11. snooperman

    snooperman Member

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    Ball ammmo makes too small of a wound channel "crush" and hence

    is less effective in stopping power. Most often the FMJ bullet will go completely through the body and may endanger someone else.
     
  12. Crusader103

    Crusader103 Member

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    As a trainer of law enforcement and police, people are often a bit surprised when I don't have a staunch opinion of bullet type. I do have a preference for high quality defensive ammunition, whether it be for a handgun, carbine, or shotgun. However, I am not religious about it.

    As an illustration, I am perfectly content leaving a competitive match with the ammunition I used during the match, quite often 115 grain jacketed 9mm rounds. When I get home and have an opportunity to clean the weapon I replace the defensive purpose ammo, but I do not feel undergunned with the target rounds.

    I believe that success lies much more in speed and shot placement combined with sound tactics than it does in the particular ammunition loaded in the weapon. That being said, I have a thorough understanding of ballistics and I am a proponent of a defensive caliber (I carry only 9mm or larger). I just do not depend on the design of a round to make the difference to the point of paranoia.
     
  13. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

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    The worst that can happen with HP ammo is it will fill with material and not expand... so it acts like ball ammo. At least with HP it "might" expand. That stated, there are calibers for which one may never want to us HP ammo. For instance, I probably would never us HP ammo with a .380 because it might not penetrate deeply enough whereas FMJ probably will. I will with 9mm though.
     
  14. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    Most modern 1911s have already been "reinvented" to use JHP, don't use something inferior.
     
  15. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    When carrying my PF-9: 115-grain JHP year-round. When carrying a .38 snub (rare): 140-grain JFN. When carrying my Bersa Thunder .380: 88-grain JHP summer months, 95-grain SJFN during the one winter month. When carrying my P-32: 71-grain JFN year-round.

    JFN: jacketed flat-nose
    SJFN: semi-jacketed flat-nose
    JHP: jacketed hollow-point.
     
  16. Carter

    Carter Member

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    I'd carry fmj if I didn't have anything else, but I really don't like the idea of using my 9mm ranger nato fmj in public.

    I trust my hst hollowpoints to perform. Or else I wouldn't carry them.
     
  17. PT92

    PT92 Member

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    Wow--Kudos for the elaborate research in your ammo selection.

    -Cheers
     
  18. WinThePennant

    WinThePennant Member

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    I always use FMJ.

    My guns are high-quality Sigs, but I still leave nothing to chance. I always want my defense pistols to shoot.

    Besides, I like penetration. Break into my house, and hiding behind a wall isn't going to save you.
     
  19. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    I think modern hollow points are superior to ball.

    However, the guy to your left doesn't carry a gun, the guy to your right has a pocket .380. Just about anything you have in your 9MM, .40S&W, or .45ACP is better than what they have.
     
  20. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    Common misconception. With heavy clothing, as simulated by the FBI's 4-layer denim test, most hollow points clog, and act like FMJ in terms of no expansion, and thorough-to-excessive penetration. (Yes, I am aware that some feel there is no such thing as excessive penetration).

    To me, the change that Winter asks for is in caliber choice, or projectile-weight choice. I might feel pretty good about a .380 HP or 10mm 125gr load in the summer; I might up that to a 38 Special +P HP and 10mm 175gr load in the winter.
    And if you're using a 1911 built in 1911 for SD :)what:), ball is probably the right choice. But 1911s and their ammo have changed just a tad in the last 100 years, so I'm not sure why I'd decide to ignore those advances with my life on the line.

    Perhaps those who use the .357 should stick with 158gr SWCs: that's the load that the .357 was designed around. ;)
     
  21. Jason_G

    Jason_G Member

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    I use JHP for carry (.45 ACP 1911). Always. Choosing to use ball is like choosing to go the prom with your sister. There are better options.

    There are some obvious situations where ball is better suited to certain tasks, but I can't think of any that apply to CCW.

    Example: When slaughtering pigs, I will use ball because I know it will penetrate the skull well, but I have all day to make a perfect shot on the hog that is in the trap and has nowhere to go. In a CCW encounter, you would be aiming for COM on a moving target where time is of the essence, and you would want expansion on your side for every hit you make. It might only be a minor help, but in that situation, you want all the help you can get.

    Jason
     
  22. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    Hardball is a pitiful stopper and terrible for self defense. Nobody who ever put one through flesh would carry it for self defense. The military uses it because they have to, not because it's the best choice.
     
  23. RevolvingGarbage

    RevolvingGarbage Member

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    I carry Winchester PDX1 in .45ACP because it is available, I know it is a hot load, and as a great bonus, it has exhibited picture perfect expansion in all of the testing ive done. The .38 Special PDX1 loading also works excellently, and I have kept the gun loaded with it in the past, but I don't have any right now so my .38 is loaded with my own load, a 125gr hardcast FP over 4.1gr bullseye.

    If I need to use either gun to defend myself, I am equally confident that any of the loads mentioned would be quite effective enough, regardless of the time of year/thickness of clothing my attacker might be wearing (excluding body armor, obviously).
     
  24. scythefwd

    scythefwd Member

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    snooperman - If you are shooting just about anything 9mm and up you're going to run into that issue. My .40 s&w has that issue. One of the best ways to stop someone is a cns hit... the next best way is blood loss... You want more holes (entry and BIG exit) to bleed out more quickly. Any caliber whose bullets reliably stop inside a bad gun isn't going to be a reliable stopper.
     
  25. Darebear

    Darebear Member

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    How's the saying go? "They all fall to .45 hardball". Lol, not true but pretty catchy.

    My 2 cents. Keep it simple. I don't think changes in season should bring about anxiety in your carry load. The FBI tests HP with 4 layers of denim... I'd say they know what they are doing. If you're worried go with the nastiest meanest stuff on the market which I think is Corbon.

    My carry load. 8+1 rounds of Winchester Ranger 230 grain JHP (Hk45c). I recently stumbled upon a box of Winchester Ranger +P 230 grain loads and brought it just cause. Maybe I'll switch to that later. Does anyone know anything about the 230grain +P Ranger?
     
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