I would like to have your input on barrel lengths please...I was told in the days of old that the longer the barrel the more accuate a rifle could be..I understand that there is alot that goes into the loading of a case that improves accuracy..let's just take for an example a .223 bolt auction rifle..You can look at a ruger compact with a 17 inch barrel..all the way to some models having 26 inch barrels..with todays modern powders does barrel length have anything to due with accuracy these days? The longer the better?..I know there has to be a trade off somewhere..could you help a new guy out?..Thanks
Barrel Lengths {Myth Buster}
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Ridgerunner665
Member
Longer barrel = longer sight radius (space between the sights)
Its actually a combination of sights and barrel that makes them more accurate.
Put a scope on it and the situation changes dramatically....sight radius no longer matters.
Its actually a combination of sights and barrel that makes them more accurate.
Put a scope on it and the situation changes dramatically....sight radius no longer matters.
David Wile
Member
Hey folks,
I sure don't know about the science of accuracy and barrel length, but it seems to me that target rifles with heavy 26 inch barrels get much better accuracy than the same caliber rifle with a shorter light weight barrel. I know there are things such as barrel harmonics and whatever, but that stuff goes over my head. Also, most of the target rifles I have seen have free floating barrels - again I think that is something with the harmonics thing. I sure can't explain it, but I think a heavy long barrel is likely to give more accuracy than a short light sporter barrel. I am sure there are others here who can explain what I have trouble understanding.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
I sure don't know about the science of accuracy and barrel length, but it seems to me that target rifles with heavy 26 inch barrels get much better accuracy than the same caliber rifle with a shorter light weight barrel. I know there are things such as barrel harmonics and whatever, but that stuff goes over my head. Also, most of the target rifles I have seen have free floating barrels - again I think that is something with the harmonics thing. I sure can't explain it, but I think a heavy long barrel is likely to give more accuracy than a short light sporter barrel. I am sure there are others here who can explain what I have trouble understanding.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
SSN Vet
Member
sight radius aside....
longer barrel = higher velocity and flatter trajectory...
a flatter trajectory "appears" to be more accurate over different ranges, as many don't know how (or chose not to) compensate with clicks on their scope, rear sight, or BD reticule.... and a "eyeballed" hold over is not precise.
there's many other factors that go into accuracy, such that a particular shorter barrel may be more accurate than a particular longer barrel....
that's my understanding.... others know much better and may chime in.
longer barrel = higher velocity and flatter trajectory...
a flatter trajectory "appears" to be more accurate over different ranges, as many don't know how (or chose not to) compensate with clicks on their scope, rear sight, or BD reticule.... and a "eyeballed" hold over is not precise.
there's many other factors that go into accuracy, such that a particular shorter barrel may be more accurate than a particular longer barrel....
that's my understanding.... others know much better and may chime in.
R.W.Dale
Member
In a vacuume so to speak a shorter bbl of the same diameter will be most accurate because it's stiffer per length
but velocity matters because unlike in a vacuume the atmosphere tries to play havoc on our groups. The faster a bullet goes the Less time mother nature has to jack with our bullet in flight before it reaches the target.
So you see it depends on how far you plan to shoot. Do you want more mechanical accuracy (the gun) at short range. Or better external ballistics (accuracy in flight)
Of course there are other variables too that influance bbl length decisions
but velocity matters because unlike in a vacuume the atmosphere tries to play havoc on our groups. The faster a bullet goes the Less time mother nature has to jack with our bullet in flight before it reaches the target.
So you see it depends on how far you plan to shoot. Do you want more mechanical accuracy (the gun) at short range. Or better external ballistics (accuracy in flight)
Of course there are other variables too that influance bbl length decisions
twice barrel
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Accuracy is the result of many things. All things being equal other than length; a longer barrel should make the shooter more accurate. Its all in the angles. If you allow that the breech is fixed then the pivot of the barrel one way or the other means the muzzle must move more in order to move the direction of the projectile's travel. A shorter barrel points faster.
Its the same reason a goose hunter benefits from a long barrel and a quail hunter a shorter one.
Anything that resists movement during the aiming and firing process should benefit the shooter in the accuracy department. Ofcourse it can also hinder him when he needs faster response.
A longer barrel may also permit more time for a bullet to extract the powder energy. It can also cause decelleration if the proper burn rate powder and charge volume are not available. Higher velocity may permit you to stablilize a longer projectile which often has better balistic qualities than a shorter one for the same caliber.
Just some considerations,
TB
Its the same reason a goose hunter benefits from a long barrel and a quail hunter a shorter one.
Anything that resists movement during the aiming and firing process should benefit the shooter in the accuracy department. Ofcourse it can also hinder him when he needs faster response.
A longer barrel may also permit more time for a bullet to extract the powder energy. It can also cause decelleration if the proper burn rate powder and charge volume are not available. Higher velocity may permit you to stablilize a longer projectile which often has better balistic qualities than a shorter one for the same caliber.
Just some considerations,
TB
The relationship between Powder Charge, Bullet Weight, Barrel Length, and distance to Target, matters in regard to Bullet Velocity, thus, effecting trajectory over distance.
Longer Barrels, when using heavy Black Powder Charges and Heavy Bullets, tend to permit higher velocities than shorter Barrels...thus, less bullet drop on the way to the Target.
Similarly with mis-matched Smokeless Powder types, vis-a-vie Barrel length and Buller type and weight.
If the Barrel is too long for the Powder Charge and Bullet type and weight, the Bullet can reach peak velocity, and then be slowing down before even leaving the Barrel...hence, probably, not aiding Accuracy if the Target is very distant.
Longer Barrels, when using heavy Black Powder Charges and Heavy Bullets, tend to permit higher velocities than shorter Barrels...thus, less bullet drop on the way to the Target.
Similarly with mis-matched Smokeless Powder types, vis-a-vie Barrel length and Buller type and weight.
If the Barrel is too long for the Powder Charge and Bullet type and weight, the Bullet can reach peak velocity, and then be slowing down before even leaving the Barrel...hence, probably, not aiding Accuracy if the Target is very distant.
You're changing two variables at once. Heavy barrels tend to be more accurate than light weight barrels and target rifles tend to be more accurate than rifles with light weight barrels. So yes, a long, heavy barrel on a target rifle will probably shoot better than a short light barrel on a regular rifle.
If you compare two barrels that are identical in every respect except length, the shorter one will tend to be more accurate.
Barring the use of iron sights, a longer barrel will not make a gun more accurate. And it's not so much barrel length that stabilizes a gun as barrel weight. In fact, some target shooters who use iron sights use a short barrel with a sight extension, bloop tube and/or barrel weights so they can get the benefits of a long sight radius (and improved handling characteristics) without the disadvantages of the long barrel.
None of this has anything to do with the accuracy of the barrel, you're talking about handling qualities of the gun. Those can contribute to the overall accuracy of the combination of shooter and gun but that's really not the focus of the original question.
A longer barrel might provide more or less velocity depending on the caliber and the length of the barrel (.22LR in a long barrel is actually probably losing velocity if you get up past 20") but regardless, trajectory isn't really an accuracy issue as much as it is a range estimation issue and, at any rate, unless we're talking pretty significant changes in barrel length (and therefore velocity/trajectory) it's going to be hard to see significant differences in trajectory.
Wind resistance is also dependent on velocity so if you're factoring in the wind a longer barrel might help a little, but again, that's an external factor, not really anything to do with the inherent accuracy of the barrel.
The comment about stabilization is correct--if you have a marginally stabilized bullet in a caliber that will benefit from a longer barrel (in terms of velocity) then increasing the barrel length could help accuracy by increasing the spin rate of the bullet--conversely reducing the barrel length in this very unusual case could destabilize the bullet further, hurting accuracy.
I should point out again that we're really splitting hairs here. It matters very little in practice for a variety of reasons. But if one is just interested in the theory of accuracy, short barrels win.
Here, take a look at this.
http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html
http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html
twice barrel
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"Quote:
Accuracy is the result of many things. All things being equal other than length; a longer barrel should make the shooter more accurate. "
"End Quote"
A barrel in and of itself really could care less about accuracy. It seems some now believe that a shorter barrel provides less opportunity to mess up an otherwise pristine launch of the projectile.
I presume a target rifle maker will address as best he can all components to arrive at a competitive firearm. If he doesn't, the shooter will supplement or modify them. But most of all it will be to address things that will make the shooter more accurate. I believe longer barrels do. Its why I think full size rifles make a shooter more accurate at longer ranges than carbines or handguns. At 25 yards who cares? At 1000 yards?...I'll take a rifle because I'm more accurate with it. I don't feel as accurate with a scoped handgun as I do a scoped rifle either.
Kindest regards,
TB
Accuracy is the result of many things. All things being equal other than length; a longer barrel should make the shooter more accurate. "
"End Quote"
A barrel in and of itself really could care less about accuracy. It seems some now believe that a shorter barrel provides less opportunity to mess up an otherwise pristine launch of the projectile.
I presume a target rifle maker will address as best he can all components to arrive at a competitive firearm. If he doesn't, the shooter will supplement or modify them. But most of all it will be to address things that will make the shooter more accurate. I believe longer barrels do. Its why I think full size rifles make a shooter more accurate at longer ranges than carbines or handguns. At 25 yards who cares? At 1000 yards?...I'll take a rifle because I'm more accurate with it. I don't feel as accurate with a scoped handgun as I do a scoped rifle either.
Kindest regards,
TB
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Actually the smallest average group size was obtained at 15".
When you do a progressive shortening like this you're likely to hit "sweet spots" in barrel length and 15" appears to be one for the particular gun being tested. Here's a plot of the average accuracy vs. bbl length.
If you were going to use this data to draw conclusions about barrel length and accuracy you'd be forced to the conclusion that there's not much effect at all. The biggest average group size is when the barrel is shortest and second biggest occurs when the barrel is longest. The best average group size is at 15" (more than halfway towards the shortest length) and 6 out of the 13 barrel lengths (21, 19, 16, 14, 13, 12 and 11) gave us average group sizes of 0.60" plus or minus a hundredth of an inch.
Other than the one outlier at 15", all of the average group sizes could be characterized by 0.58" plus or minus 7 hundredths of an inch.
The stiffer the barrel, the better the accuracy. All else being equal, the shorter the barrel the stiffer it will be. However, the effect is not a large one as I've mentioned a couple of times on this thread so far.
Also, as demonstrated by the graph, the barrel length can have a dramatic effect on accuracy if you can tune the length to a sweet spot. That's the phenomenon exploited by the Browning BOSS and the similar adjustable muzzle device on the new Target Mini 14. both devices essentially allow the shooter to vary the barrel length in fine increments.
I do agree that practical issues (perhaps some of the handling issues you mention) can have a much greater practical effect on the accuracy of the shooter/firearm combination.
When you do a progressive shortening like this you're likely to hit "sweet spots" in barrel length and 15" appears to be one for the particular gun being tested. Here's a plot of the average accuracy vs. bbl length.
If you were going to use this data to draw conclusions about barrel length and accuracy you'd be forced to the conclusion that there's not much effect at all. The biggest average group size is when the barrel is shortest and second biggest occurs when the barrel is longest. The best average group size is at 15" (more than halfway towards the shortest length) and 6 out of the 13 barrel lengths (21, 19, 16, 14, 13, 12 and 11) gave us average group sizes of 0.60" plus or minus a hundredth of an inch.
Other than the one outlier at 15", all of the average group sizes could be characterized by 0.58" plus or minus 7 hundredths of an inch.
Demonstrably incorrect.
The stiffer the barrel, the better the accuracy. All else being equal, the shorter the barrel the stiffer it will be. However, the effect is not a large one as I've mentioned a couple of times on this thread so far.
Also, as demonstrated by the graph, the barrel length can have a dramatic effect on accuracy if you can tune the length to a sweet spot. That's the phenomenon exploited by the Browning BOSS and the similar adjustable muzzle device on the new Target Mini 14. both devices essentially allow the shooter to vary the barrel length in fine increments.
I do agree that practical issues (perhaps some of the handling issues you mention) can have a much greater practical effect on the accuracy of the shooter/firearm combination.
Some people like David Tubb (who has been known to shoot a rifle with a "bloop tube")? When you can show me a trophy room like his perhaps I'll give your opinion the same weight as his.
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zfk55
Member
This article was posted once before, but it stands side by side with JohnKSa's point.
zfk55
zfk55
USSR
Member
Hmm, I guess I will start seeing .308 AR10's with 16" barrels on the 1,000 yard firing line, NOT! As good as that previous article is in selling the concept, the reality is, that such a platform will not replace the bolt action rifle in any LR competition that does not involve rapidity of fire.
Don
Don
zfk55
Member
That's not what it said, and that was not the intent. The question was accuracy in relation to barrel length, Donald.
zfk55
zfk55
USSR
Member
Ah, so a heavy contour 16" E.R. Shaw barrel will outshoot a 26" MTU contour Krieger, simply because it is shorter? The quality of the barrel and the smithing that goes into chambering it (and from the article, both are quite high), make up the majority of the accuracy potential of a rifle. When you are talking about making a rifle more accurate by simply lopping off a few inches, something like having a new and better crown is more likely to influence the accuracy, rather than the degree to which the barrel stiffness has been influenced. Just MHO.
Don
USSR,
You're attacking a strawman of your own creation.
In case these points haven't been made enough times on this thread (3 times and counting now), the theoretical advantage of a shorter barrel over a long one is very small. Practically speaking there are other factors that are going to outweigh the accuracy difference due to length.
The only way you'd be likely to see a difference is if you could find two barrels identical in every respect other than length. Then the short barrel should have a slight advantage barring any issues relating to barrel length "sweet spots". If you are comparing barrels that are VERY different in terms of length then the added velocity from the longer barrel (assuming that there IS actually added velocity from the added length--not always the case depending on the caliber) may provide some practical benefits that outweigh the small accuracy advantage of the shorter barrel.
The main point is the one I made in my initial post on the thread. Here it is again with some added emphasis.
You're attacking a strawman of your own creation.
In case these points haven't been made enough times on this thread (3 times and counting now), the theoretical advantage of a shorter barrel over a long one is very small. Practically speaking there are other factors that are going to outweigh the accuracy difference due to length.
The only way you'd be likely to see a difference is if you could find two barrels identical in every respect other than length. Then the short barrel should have a slight advantage barring any issues relating to barrel length "sweet spots". If you are comparing barrels that are VERY different in terms of length then the added velocity from the longer barrel (assuming that there IS actually added velocity from the added length--not always the case depending on the caliber) may provide some practical benefits that outweigh the small accuracy advantage of the shorter barrel.
The main point is the one I made in my initial post on the thread. Here it is again with some added emphasis.
If you're not using iron sights then it matters very little how long the barrel is.
To the small extent that it DOES matter, shorter barrels tend to be more accurate than longer barrels.
To the small extent that it DOES matter, shorter barrels tend to be more accurate than longer barrels.
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Just to stir the pot, Google for "secrets of the Houston warehouse". The article speaks to real-world experimentation on barrel lengths.
USSR
Member
Good point, Art, wasn't the best barrel length in that case a little over 21"?
JohnKSa,
I was responding to the implications contained in the Jim Benson article that was posted, so there was no "strawman" involved on my part or anyone's part.
Don
21.75" It's an interesting claim, but I can't imagine how it could possibly be true across the board regardless of barrel thickness differences, caliber differences, barrel material differences, bedding differences, stock differences, etc.
Where does the article say anything that could be characterized as meaning this: "When you are talking about making a rifle more accurate by simply lopping off a few inches..."
Uncle Mike
Member
If you would maintain the SAME velocity in those shortening barrel tests, then those tests may have some merit, as it stands now, they don't since velocity changed as the barrel became shorter.
It is not a simple matter of less velocity only affecting elevation, as the velocity decreases, also will the projectile behave differently in regards to windage.
True a 16" barrel CAN be as or more accurate than a 26" barrel, but like krochus said...in a vacuum!
You should decide your barrel length with regard to the length of barrel needed to utilize all your propellant, if your load burns out in 21", then get a 22" barrel....if you can live with a certain velocity, say of a 16" barrel, fine, then 16" it is.
As for the actual barrel itself, the steel tube with rifling in it, no, a longer barrel is not more accurate than a shorter barrel.
As for burning all your powder every round, launching with the same pressure (curve)every round which makes for better accuracy, then yes, a longer barrel is more accurate than a shorter barrel.
It is not a simple matter of less velocity only affecting elevation, as the velocity decreases, also will the projectile behave differently in regards to windage.
True a 16" barrel CAN be as or more accurate than a 26" barrel, but like krochus said...in a vacuum!
You should decide your barrel length with regard to the length of barrel needed to utilize all your propellant, if your load burns out in 21", then get a 22" barrel....if you can live with a certain velocity, say of a 16" barrel, fine, then 16" it is.
As for the actual barrel itself, the steel tube with rifling in it, no, a longer barrel is not more accurate than a shorter barrel.
As for burning all your powder every round, launching with the same pressure (curve)every round which makes for better accuracy, then yes, a longer barrel is more accurate than a shorter barrel.
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