BATF response to use of hi-cap magazines in Saiga Sporters

[BSA1]

As a result of the responses I received on a previous thread about use of high capacity magazines in a stock Siaga rifle I contacted the BATF today. Before I post my question and their response I wished to establish the ground rules;

Rule #1; No piling on. I admit I am not knowledgeable about Federal Law USC 18 922r and find the point system confusing. Member Girodin already done an excellent job exposing my ignorance on post #22 and 27 on

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=676750&page=2

Therefore if you wish to comment on my ignorance just post “Ditto Posts 22 & 27.” We will all know what you mean.

Rule #2; ALL of the information I am about to post is unreliable and should be treated as false UNTIL you either verify it with BATF personally or until I am able to provide a written response from the BATF on their official letterhead.

Rule #3; I am not going to use magazines with greater than 10 round capacity UNTIL I receive approval in writing from the BATF on their official letterhead.

OK. Here is the information I received via telephone from the BATF. I telephoned the BATF Kansas City Group III (Industry Operations) Area Supervisor (2600 Grand Avenue, Suite 280, Kansas City, Missouri 64108 USA) at (816) 559-0730 and talked to Rachel.

I told her I was inquiring about how I can use a magazine greater than 10 rounds capacity in my factory stock condition Saiga Sporter rifle in 223 that was imported from Russia by J&G Sales without violating Federal Law in regards to 922r. She took my information and said she would research it and call me back.

In slightly less than three hours later she called me back. She provided the following answers to me;

If I use a imported magazine greater than 10 round capacity on my rifle which was imported from Russia then USC 18 922r applies and I must remove a equal number of imported parts (points) to remain in compliance with the law.

If I use a magazine greater the 10 round capacity that is made in the United States on my rifle which was imported from Russia then USC 18 922r does not apply and I will not be in violation of the law.

Let me summarize our conversation differently; I can legally use a magazine that is made in the United States that holds more than 10 rounds in my unaltered factory stock Saiga Sporter without worrying about complying with USC 18 922r.

I did not ask her how many points an imported magazine has as my question only dealt with using a unaltered imported Saiga Sporter.

I requested a letter confirming the information which she said she could not provide me with. However she told me to call BATF Industry and Logistics Headquarters at 304-616-4550 to request a written reply to my question.

I would encourage other members of this forum contact their regional BATF field office

http://www.atf.gov/contact/headquarters/

with the same question and post the answer they receive. I intend to pursue a written response from the BATF in the near future.

 

[Quentin]

I would look at post 28 of the thread you linked. Adam123's list seems to agree with what the woman from the BATF said. The Saiga has 17 parts that are counted and no more than 10 can be foreign made, that means you must have 7 US made parts from the list (and the magazine counts for 3).

My WASR has 16 parts that are counted and I have 6 that are US made, not even counting the magazine so I can use imported 30 rounders. If you put in a US trigger group that list says you have 4 parts right there so if you can come up with 3 more US parts other than the magazine then you could use imported mags, assuming your local laws allow more than 10 rounds.

.....

 

[Rob G]

I would assume that the importer took care of all this before you bought the rifle, BTW.

Bad assumption Quentin. Stock Saigas are 100% Russian made and are absolutely legal in their imported form since they're "sporterized" guns. The importers have essentially no reason to change anything on them and I've never seen one that had any US parts on it unless it was already converted to AK format.

Plus I don't think anybody actually makes US made triggers to replace a stock Saiga trigger. And yes, I know there are US made trigger groups out there but those are for converted saigas, not stock ones which use a different fcg design.

OP, I think the lady on the phone is wrong. But I will be interested to see what you get back in writing from the BATFE.

 

[JFtheGR8]

That is petty much what I had concluded. Prior to converting my Saiga I was using a US made 30 round mag from Promag. No bullet guide required either.


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[amd6547]

I would like to see the ATF attempt to prosecute someone for using an import mag in an unaltered Saiga...
It would be interesting to see the defense introduce a fully converted AK format Saiga next to the sporter Saiga and ask the prosecution to explain to the jury why one is "legal" and one isn't.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I would like to see the ATF attempt to prosecute someone for using an import mag in an unaltered Saiga...
It would be interesting to see the defense introduce a fully converted AK format Saiga next to the sporter Saiga and ask the prosecution to explain to the jury why one is "legal" and one isn't.

It won't matter, the ATF will bankrupt you, and if it does get to a jury the jury will be instructed to disregard that idea as a defense, counting on Jury nullification is a stupid idea, it rarely happens.

 

[JFtheGR8]

I would like to see the ATF attempt to prosecute someone for using an import mag in an unaltered Saiga...
It would be interesting to see the defense introduce a fully converted AK format Saiga next to the sporter Saiga and ask the prosecution to explain to the jury why one is "legal" and one isn't.

It wouldn't be unaltered. AK mags won't fit without some modification.


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[Girodin]

Adam123's list seems to agree with what the woman from the BATF said. The Saiga has 17 parts that are counted and no more than 10 can be foreign made, that means you must have 7 US made parts from the list (and the magazine counts for 3).

How does the stock saiga rifle have 17 parts? That list includes a muzzle device which the stock saiga clearly does not have.

I would like to see the ATF attempt to prosecute someone for using an import mag in an unaltered Saiga...
It would be interesting to see the defense introduce a fully converted AK format Saiga next to the sporter Saiga and ask the prosecution to explain to the jury why one is "legal" and one isn't.

I think it would be really easy to explain actually. You simply make a list of the parts and count up the parts. Even a pretty dumb juror can count more than 10.

 

[rcmodel]

IMO: Calling the BATF and asking these kinds of questions is just stirring up trouble nobody ever got in trouble for in the first place, if they weren't robbing banks with an AK / Saiga or something.

Yes, I understand the law.

But I also understand I have never ever heard of anyone getting in trouble for such shenanigans, unless the law needed additional Federal charges for something else they did more serious in the first place.

Never mind!

rc

 

[mshootnit]

It's easy and I believe smart to always set a stamped AK up with 6 compliance parts regardless of the magazine.

 

[mshootnit]

you can't do your math starting with the factory saiga. Your finished project will be a 922r compliant kalashnikov style semi automatic rifle. As such and being of stamped receiver, it will consist of 16 total 922r parts 6 of which will need to be US manufacture. It is wise to utilize 6 US parts regardless of the magazine. This is very easy to do. FCG plus all furniture and you are good to go.
Note: many AK rifles do not have a muzzle attachment and therefore only need 5 parts.
No need for a disclaimer when you speak the truth

 

[Adam123]

It's easy and I believe smart to always set an AK up with 6 compliance parts regardless of the magazine.

^^^ This post.

 

[SeenUnseen]

FYI - Dinzag Arms sells a modified TAPCO G2 FCG for the unconverted Saiga's. It counts for two (2) compliance parts. I've used it. Trigger feel is much improved, though not quite as good as a G2 on a full conversion.

Go here and scroll down a little.
http://dinzagarms.com/misc_parts/fcg.html

 

[amd6547]

"...It wouldn't be unaltered. AK mags won't fit without some modification..."-JFtheGr8

Saiga 5.45's will accept standard surplus mags without alteration, and function without the addition of the bullet guide.

 

[SaxonPig]

This topic confirms that gun laws are insane. Points, parts, imported, exported. What the Hell?

 

[JFtheGR8]

"...It wouldn't be unaltered. AK mags won't fit without some modification..."-JFtheGr8

Saiga 5.45's will accept standard surplus mags without alteration, and function without the addition of the bullet guide.

Thanks for the clarification. I was speaking of the 7.62x39.


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[Girodin]

Member Girodin already done an excellent job exposing my ignorance on post #22 and 27 on

BTW I wasn't taking you to task for ignorance, but rather for being rude to folks trying to help you find the information you sought.

It's easy and I believe smart to always set a stamped AK up with 6 compliance parts regardless of the magazine.

I also agree. I think it is better to not rely on magazines for compliance parts, for a number of reasons actually.

On to the questions.

If I use a magazine greater the 10 round capacity that is made in the United States on my rifle which was imported from Russia then USC 18 922r does not apply and I will not be in violation of the law

I will be very interested to see a written statement on that. I think the natural way to read the applicable law and regulations directly goes against that.

The law in questions reads as follows:

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

Thus, there are in essence two questions:

1) Does the gun having a 30 round magazine make it a gun that would not be legal for import under 925 (d)(3)?

2) Does the end user inserting a 30 round mag constitute "assembling" for 922r purposes.

Lets discuss them in turn. As to the first question we must first read 925 (d)(3). It states:

(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a
firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue
Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable
for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus
military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General
has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to
this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame,
receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if
assembled; or

This is where the so called sporting purposes test arises from. The Secretary shall approve importation of rifles only when they are "generally recognized as
particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." Here is some background reading on sporting purpose. I know you don't like getting a link but you really need to read somethings yourself if you really want to understand them.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industr...-of-modified-semiautomatic-assault-rifles.pdf

In sum mags holding more than 10 rounds have been viewed by BATF as "non sporting". Furthermore there is an argument that a gun simply being able to accept a 30 round magazine makes it fail the sporting purposes test. This is why saigas have a different sized mag latch and wont feed from MOST AK mags reliably without a bullet guide but instead have proprietary 10 round mags. If that was not required for import I highly doubt they would be doing it. They make them that way to skirt being able to accept standard mags and thus being a non sporting gun. This is why some AK variants were imported with magwells that only took single stack mags ( and then had the magwell hogged out and other parts changed).

A wrench has been thrown in all of this buy companies like surefire, promag, etc who make mags that hold more than 10 rounds, or what the ATF calls Large capacity military magazines (LCMM). Now these rifles, that were built expressly not to accept LCMMs, can arguable do so with no modification. However, the Secretary has continued to approve their importation. That could certainly change though. That is one of the things that people who think you shouldn't write the ATF are worried about. They worry that it would be easy enough to look at a saiga now and say it has the key feature that makes a gun non sporting and thus not approve importation.

This all means that there is an argument that even modifying the gun to take standard AK mags, without putting a mag in it makes it not legal for import and thus triggers 922r. It seems that sticking a 30 round mag in the gun clearly mags it "non sporting" and puts it within the various laws being discussed.

I'll readily admit I have not followed every rule making of the ATF. Furthermore, they regularly change their interpretations of the law and how they chose or plan to enforce it. However, I'm unaware of anything that would make there be a legal difference for "sporting purposes" based on where the mag is made. It seems a 30 round mag would be enough to get you to non sporting. However, maybe the BATF is saying that a crappy surefire or promag mags are not a "military mag" thus not a LCMM, the key feature thing have honed in on in the past. Rather, I think it is just an oversight or that people realize it is stupid and don't care to worry about it. This particular issue, how availability of saiga specific mags affects those guns being per se not sporting is something I would need to research more.

The second issue:

The activity proscribed by 922r is assembly. The code says its illegal "to assemble" yet that term is not defined. I know in the past the ATF has opined that inserting a magazine is assembly. Given the list of parts they created in 27 C.F.R. 478.89 and the rest of the 922r framework, I think it is a compelling argument.

If putting the mag in makes it non sporting and it also constitutes assembly then I'm not sure how country of origin is relevant other than for purposes of counting parts per 27 C.F.R. 478.89.

The fact is, this is all pretty absurd stuff on a practical level. It is my guess that is why no one has put too much effort into enforcing or clarifying these fuzzier areas. However, it is so easy to be well within the law and clear of the question marks that is what I choose to do. Taking the gun down to 10 or fewer countable parts (preferably without relying on mags) is the best way to sleep easy.

I'll be interested to see what they send you in writing. Know that what they tell you is not the law as such though. Rather it is how they were choosing to interpret it at the moment the letter was written.

 

[nazshooter]

My WASR has 16 parts that are counted and I have 6 that are US made, not even counting the magazine so I can use imported 30 rounders.

.....

God help you if you load that thing up with Russian ammo

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

[meanmrmustard]

I've never seen an ATF agent. Never counted parts in over two decades. Don't care.

 

[BSA1]

Spanked again!!!

BTW I wasn't taking you to task for ignorance, but rather for being rude to folks trying to help you find the information you sought.

Dang it Girodin if you didn't do it to me again!!!

I assess a 10 yard penalty on you for violating Rule #1 Piling On.

Oh wait we have a coaches challenge.

(whisper, whisper, whisper)

After review the call is reversed. Since Girodin made the original call he is free to continue to call the Op rude.

Also per Rule #2 he is free to call the O.P. ignorant.

In addition the O.P. is assessed a 10 yard penalty for posting information recieved from BATF.

The clock is reset and the ball is on the field.

 

[aka108]

Isn't 10 rds enough? I personally can see carrying the Saiga around with a big 30 rd mag hanging out of it. I own 2 of them and wouldn't change a thing. I have 5, 10 and 30 rd mags for my Arsenal SA M7S and the 30 rd mags as far a I can see are useless unless you simply want to make a lot of noise and piss off those others you may be shooting with.

 

[BSA1]

IMO: Calling the BATF and asking these kinds of questions is just stirring up trouble nobody ever got in trouble for in the first place, if they weren't robbing banks with an AK / Saiga or something.

The only person I am putting at risk is myself and that is of no concern to me. The Feds are very familiar with me as my fingerprints and background checks have been on file for years. As a matter of fact I just underwent fingerprinting and background check in January.

Add to the mix that I have a C&R License the BATF can visit me any time without a warrant. Suppose while visiting me and checking my books they see the Saiga with a 30 round magazine well care to guess the rest...

But with letter from Headquarters .

Yes, I understand the law.

I find some parts of 922r confusing. I think other members do to they just aren't willing to expose their ignorance and catch heat like me.

But I also understand I have never ever heard of anyone getting in trouble for such shenanigans, unless the law needed additional Federal charges for something else they did more serious in the first place.

Doesn't matter. How can having a better understanding of any law be a bad thing?

 

[BSA1]

Isn't 10 rds enough? I personally can see carrying the Saiga around with a big 30 rd mag hanging out of it. I own 2 of them and wouldn't change a thing. I have 5, 10 and 30 rd mags for my Arsenal SA M7S and the 30 rd mags as far a I can see are useless unless you simply want to make a lot of noise and piss off those others you may be shooting with

Saiga rifles are factory supplied with 5 round magazines yet you were not satisified and DOUBLED the magazine capacity of a semi-automatic rifle that is capable of sprewing deadly bullets in a matter of seconds.

For that matter why do you even need a semi-automatic military designed rifle used by our enemies across the world?

Sarah Brady and the rest of the her anti-gun bunch can explain it to you better than me.

 

[Quentin]

There is a forum that deals with Saigas. Has lots of information on builds and conversions.

Excellent advice from Mr Rogers... it's fairly easy to figure out how to get a semiauto AKM pattern rifle 922r compliant but I don't think the OP has made it clear which way he wants to go with a Saiga conversion (or probably no conversion) and I've sure never done it. Might be best to go get the answers from a dedicated Saiga forum. If not doing a conversion then keeping it in the sporting configuration with domestic 10-rd mags sounds wise.

 

[amd6547]

What is absurd is that I am one who has no desire to alter my 5.45 Saiga to standard AK format. I have a standard AK. I would like to keep the Saiga as is, with the possible exception of adding an AK74 muzzle brake, and the ability to use military mags.
Crazy that the only feasible way to do that is a full "evil AK" conversion, thanks to the rediculous law.