Battle rifles for snipers?

[eurohacker]

I was wondering if it's viable to use battle rifles (FAL, AR, AK etc) for sniping?

I do remember the Marine Corps using the M14 as their sniper rifle, but they've accurized it with all kinds of funky stuff, like a free floating barrel and what not.

So, a regular battle rifle with a scope, is it a good idea for a sniper?

I am guessing the answer is probably no, given that snipers generally don't use the same rifles as ordinary riflemen, but you never know.

I guess it comes down to what kind of range you desire.

I guess one area where a battle rifle with a scope is a good idea is for a squad dedicated marksman/sharpshooter. This would be like the missing link between a rifleman and a sniper. I think the russians implement this, to give their squads a little extra range.

How accurate can the AK47 be made with a scope?

What are your opinions?

 

[Henry Bowman]

Ar-15s are commonly used for long range target shooting. The so-called D.C. "snipers" a few years ago used an AR-15 for thier antics.

 

[dolanp]

Like you said, it depends on range. None of those rifles are going to be right for a 1000yd shot, so there are special rifles made for that kind of thing.

Most AKs are not inherently accurate enough to be a 'sniper' weapon really.

 

[eurohacker]

Let's say the range is 600 meters? Would a FAL with a scope do the job?

 

[George S.]

Aren't the current crop of US military sniper rifles either custom made by the military or an accurized vesion of the M-14? They used to use a version of the Remington Model 700 as a sniper rifle.

The caliber and bullet weight would have to play an important role in shots over long distances. A round like the .308 should have more power behind it at really long ranges compared to 5.56mm or the 7.62x39. Isn't the military sniper round a custom load?

 

[NoViuM]

I believe military rifles have a larger chamber than that of sniper rifles. How a bullet sits in the chamber and distance to the lands is important for accuracy. Sniper rifles usually have smaller and non rifled chambers to keep the bullet sitting the same way every time. You sacrofice accuracy this way. The russian army doesn't dispatch snipers in the way that we think of snipers. They have designated sharpshooters that use Dragunovs 7.62x54 semi-auto rifles. Based on the AK action it has a longer barrel and is reworked for enguaging targets out to 800 meters I think. AK with a scope is dumb. The rifle wasn't made for enguaging targets out past around 100 yards. It probably could be acurized as Robarms has with a reciever from a squad light machine gun (RPK) reciever, but you're trading rifle agility for weight of a heavier reciever and barrel. Most acurising consists of heavier and longer barrel, not something you want on a light agile battle rifle. Just putting a scope on something doesn't make it more acurate.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

I do remember the Marine Corps using the M14 as their sniper rifle...

The primary weapon of our snipers is the M40a3 rifle. It's a bolt-action.



Our squad designated marksmen have an M-14 available, called the "DMR" (Designated Marksman's Rifle)

I don't know of any standard-issue rifle used as the primary weapon of a sniper. Although not ideal, it could fill the role in some situations.

 

[Zak Smith]

Semi-automatic rifles used in Marksman or Snipers roles by US Forces include: the M16/AR15 in various forms (e.g. DMR, SPR); the M14; the SR-25. The AR-10 is also in use by US contractors and may be in use by US Forces.

The TA31 ACOG is being issue to US Forces in huge numbers; this is effectively your "standard issue battle rifle issued with a scope."

-z

 

[Commissar Gribb]

accurized M14 + bipod + scope = M21 sniper rifle

 

[Travis McGee]

The US Secret Service is dropping bolt guns and going to a gas gun which will probably be a Stoner SR-25 or similar. The USMC is trying to get as many SR-25s as possible. SEALs and Special Forces use all of the SR-25s they can get as sniper rifles.

Why? Follow up shots. The era of the two day stalk in a ghillie suit to get a "one shot one kill" is coming to an end. Today snipers are primarily a very heavily tasked urban warrior. He goes out with a 4 to 6 man team, not alone. (The rest must secure the building he is using as a shooting location, and of course, one is is spotter.)

The bolt guns simply don't keep up with current urban warfare as it is happening in Iraq. Working the bolt as 3 or 4 bad guys scramble for cover at 300-800 yards just is not cutting it. With a very accurate gas gun, you can keep the crosshairs on multiple enemy from shot to shot.

Even the USSS has recognized this. The question is: if you can get 1/3 MOA from a five or six shot bolt gun, or 1/2 MOA from a 20 shot SR-25, is that tiny edge in accuracy worth it?

NO is the answer. It's not. Imagine you are a USSS counter sniper high over the President. A van pulls up and ten terrorists jump out, overwhelming the ground security elements. Do you want to be 300 yards away, in your perch, working a bolt and reloading? While jihad commandos rush at the President, the way the killers of Sadat did?

No way. You need accuracy, but you also need speed and lots of bullets in these kinds of scenarios.

The current feedback going to the USMC Scout Sniper school is that the training is all wrong for today's combat. Spending months at Pendleton learning to stalk through the boonies has nothing to do with current sniper employment. In fact, they have sent over plenty of snipers who failed the stalking portion of the course at Pendleton. They need the shooters! And the snipers in Iraq say that the stalking in the boonies training is of no value anyway. They are currently reevaluating the weapons and tactics of USMC Scout Sniper training and employment from top to bottom.

Viet Nam is over, say today's snipers. Train us for urban combat, not a three day boonie stalk with a bolt gun. Give us gas guns so we can kill more enemy before they reach cover. That's what today's snipers are saying.

Plus, in urban combat, the Scout Sniper can become another grunt in a heartbeat, just by going around a corner. Being stuck with a bolt gun is a big liability when suddenly confronted by ten bearded madmen with AK-47s at 100 feet range. That's another common situation where the 20 shot gas gun in .308/7.62 totally outshines the M-40.

The SR-25 as used by Special Forces and SEALs comes standard with a free floating quad pic rail. Putting on a night scope without loss of zero is a snap. IR lasers for spotting and designating targets igives the modern sniper another capability. Heavy ordnance can use the snipers IR laser dot for an aiming point.

Except for increasingly rare circumstances (the three day feild stalk) the day of the M-40 bolt gun is over. The snipers want gas guns like the SR-25. If that can't reach the enemy, they want a .50 caliber.

Matt

 

[obiwan1]

D.C. sniper Their longest shot was less than 50 yards! Don't think of them as snipers.

I think an AK would be a good close/medium distance weapon. Put a red dot sight and a decent stock on it and I'd buy one!

At MCRD Parris Island in 1969, part of our qual was 10 shots at 500 yards (or meters, I really don't remember) with an issue gun (M14) with stock peep sights. Many of us shot possibles and the remainder only dropped a point or two at that range.

For any kind of prescision work at medium-long distances (up to 1000 yards) give me a good bolt gun (25 cal or higher) with good scope. Any kind of a decent marksman (Parris Island grads.....) would do really well.

 

[DarthBubba]

Shot a tricked out M-14 recently

Shot a tricked out M-14 recently,

I had the pleasure of shooting a tricked out M-14 recently it had all the bells and whistles,
Trigger job, floated heavy barrel, bedded action all of the goodies with a really nice kahles scope.
The owner was a retired Marine and he had done all of the work himself.
Now the really amazing part is that with his hand loads even I was able to hit decent groups out past 800 yards which is farther that I have ever shot that type of rifle before, and his hands the 1000 yard mark was no problem.
I guess my point is that a good armorer can make an M-14 that really kicks rearend.

DarthBubba

 

[El Tejon]

euro, don't the snipers in your nation's army still use the AK-5? Nothing wrong with the AK system as a sniper weapon.

 

[Father Knows Best]

The FAL and AK platforms don't have enough inherent accuracy potential for really long range work (and the standard AK rounds aren't ballistically up to the task). Among MBR's, the AR and M1 platforms are the best suited, as lots of work has been done over the years to developing them for high accuracy. You can find or build sub-MOA AR's and M1A's pretty easily and inexpensively.

The other possibility is the G3 (HK91). In my experience, it's not as easy to build a sub-MOA from a G3 platform as it is from an AR or M1A platform, but it can be done much easier than starting from an FAL or AK platform.

In my safe, I have a DSA SA58 (FAL in .308), Arsenal SA M7 (AK in 7.62x39) and a PTR-91 (HK91 in .308). The PTR-91 was by far the most accurate out of the box. I've built it up as my medium to long range rifle, and it will easily outshoot the other two at anything over 250 yards. It also handles heavier bullets much better, which is better for maintaining energy and bucking the wind. It's not the best choice for close in work, though. The SA M7 would be my first choice for 0-100 yards, and the FAL for up 100-250.

 

[benEzra]

A good AK with a scope and good ammunition can do perhaps 2.5 MOA (2.5 arcminutes). A good sniper rifle will do under 1 MOA dispersion.

A more serious problem for use of the 7.62x39mm as any sort of long-range weapon is the low muzzle velocity, which gives it a trajectory that approximates the shape of a rainbow at long range. It also lacks the power for long-distance shooting, and the relatively lightweight, draggy bullet doesn't help.

The U.S. Department of Defense considers 400 meters to be the maximum effective range for an actual military (full-auto) AK-47, and that's allowing for bursts to increase hit probability. I own a civilian AK lookalike, and even with a scope I'd say 400 meters is probably a bit optimistic except under the most ideal conditions. 300 meters, maybe, but the bullet still has less than half the energy of a .308/7.62x51mm at that range.

The U.S. military does use accurized M16's as "designated marksman rifles," sort of like how the Russians use the Dragunov, but that is not really a true sniper role according to the U.S. definition of the term. AR-15's (civilian non-automatic counterpart to M16) are extremely popular for long-range target competition here in the U.S., but they are generally accurized a bit. Also, for military use the 5.56x45mm doesn't have all that much energy left at 1000 meters.

BTW, the D.C.-area "snipers" (the two clowns that went around shooting people from the trunk of a car) did all of their shooting at point-blank range, 100 yards max and in some cases much closer than that.

 

[Bobarino]

the H&K PSG-1 and SRT-9 are both very accurate rifles designed for sniper duty but based on the G3/91. spendy little buggers though. at $10k a pop, the PSG-1 is an awfully exspensive battle rifle, but it would work in both roles.

Bobby

 

[eurohacker]

El Tejon: I didn't know the Swedish army had snipers

 

[AK103K]

Their longest shot was less than 50 yards! Don't think of them as snipers.

I think anything, even the lowly .22, can be used effectively as a "sniper" rifle. Who says you have to shoot someone a mile away to be a sniper? Perhaps we should be calling what are being called "sniper rifles" here, "long range precision rifles" instead. Or does that deflate the ego's of the "snipers" ?

 

[The Viking]

euro, don't the snipers in your nation's army still use the AK-5? Nothing wrong with the AK system as a sniper weapon.

I believe the snipers use the Accuracy International L96A1 AW. Marksmen use AK4 rifles (H&K G3) I believe. Hemvärnet (National Guard sort of) use it too. Until the locks they provide have busted all the weapons permanently.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Bobarino:

the H&K PSG-1 and SRT-9 are both very accurate rifles designed for sniper duty but based on the G3/91. spendy little buggers though. at $10k a pop, the PSG-1 is an awfully exspensive battle rifle, but it would work in both roles.

Yup. and don't forget the MSG-90, which is also on the same platform.

That's my point, though. the G3/91 platform is capable of excellent accuracy, as is the 7.62x51 cartridge. Even if you can't afford a PSG-1 (and not many of us can), you can start with a good 91 or clone (like the PTR-91) for under a grand and modify it to achieve darn near PSG-1 accuracy. You'll still end up spending more than you probably would have on an AR or M1A/M14 platform, but you'll get there.

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

I just wanted to correct some things from Novium's post that were very wrong.

First off, he is correct that the Soviet philosophy behind designated marksmen/snipers is different than the American system, but he is very wrong about the capabilities of the the AK beyond 100 yards.

My ex-girlfriend is Romanian, and,of course, her father was in the military, and I've learned alot from him about the way that the Romanians deployed marksmen (their system was very similar to the way the Russians and everyone else in the CCCP).

The Romanians did use the SVD's (Dragunov's) for a while, but then they switched over the the PSL/ROMAK-3 that was developed at RATMIL. When RATMIL was designing the PSL they weren't sure on what cartridge to use, so they made models in 7.62x54R (naturally), 7.62x51, and even some in 30.06. Some people have said there are 7.62x39 models, but I've never seen one and it doesn't really fit with the use of the rifle to use a regular infantry cartridge.

While the basic AK-47 may not be the best designated marksman weapon, a capable shooter can make reliably accurate shots (3-4.5 MOA) out to 300 yards; I would say a good shooter could make the same shots out to 400 yards or so with an AK-74 on 5.45. On the other hand, a good shooter with a PSL should be able to make quality shots out to 500 yards with 7.62x54R ammo, and that is exactly what the marksmen were expected to do. Also, as a side note - SVD's could probably make accurate shots out to 600 yards as they are closer to traditional "sniper" rifles than PSL's, but the Chinese NDM-86 in 7.62x51 is close to the M14 in its accuracy potential.

The way Romanian marksmen were deployed was to have a few marksmen in every infantry group and they were expected to take out targets that were between 300 and 400 yards out (targets regular infantry troops would have a hard time with). The amazing thing here is that they were expected to take these shots from "quick" positions, and Mihai (her father) said that this was usually done standing or sitting.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

Shot a tricked out M-14 recently,

I had the pleasure of shooting a tricked out M-14 recently it had all the bells and whistles,
Trigger job, floated heavy barrel, bedded action all of the goodies with a really nice kahles scope.
The owner was a retired Marine and he had done all of the work himself.
Now the really amazing part is that with his hand loads even I was able to hit decent groups out past 800 yards which is farther that I have ever shot that type of rifle before, and his hands the 1000 yard mark was no problem.
I guess my point is that a good armorer can make an M-14 that really kicks rearend.

DarthBubba

I dont consider it fully tricked out unless it's an NFA M14

 

[Ian]

How accurate can the AK47 be made with a scope?

A scope doesn't actually make a rifle any more accurate, nor does it have any effect on a shooter's hold or trigger press. Scopes magnify a target, thus allowing a shooter to fire at something he/she otherwise could not see, and allow the shooter to align two object (reticle and target) rather than three (rear sight, front sight, and target). That's all. Unless a shooter can't properly align iron sights, a scope will make no difference in how accurately they can fire a given rifle.

 

[Crosshair]

As a Designated Marksman rifle, they would work just fine for the task required. The Russians recognised this years ago with their SVD designated marksman rifle. Doing the same with a run of the mill FAL or such would be a good idea. Slap a better barrel on it, put on a good scope, tune it a bit, and Viola, a designated marksman rifle. Accurate enough for 98% of real world situations.

 

[AZ Jeff]

I had the pleasure of shooting a tricked out M-14 recently it had all the bells and whistles,
Trigger job, floated heavy barrel, bedded action all of the goodies with a really nice kahles scope.

FYI for several who have posted in this thread, the M-14, when configured for maximum accuracy, does NOT employ a "floated" barrel. The AMU methodology for creating maximum accuracy involves bedding the rifle such that the barrel has constant downward tension on it, induced by the stock/forearm.