Insurgent Snipers?

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I love these heated threads were people argue the semantecs of a word like snipe(r) LOL

snipe[2,intransitive verb]
Main Entry:
2snipe
Function:
intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
sniped; snip·ing
Date:
1832
1 : to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage
2 : to aim a carping or snide attack
— snip·er noun
 
After reading some of the above posts, there appears to be more than one way to learn how to shoot out to 500+ yards.

Option 1.

You can join the Marines, they will indeed teach you to shoot out to 500 yards. According to some here, that seem to have "been there, done that", they will seldom allow you to shoot out past 100meters, and almost never past 300 meters, and then only with special optics. They also will not give you the best tool for the job, being that they will only give you an M4 or M16, which are fine, but not known for their long shooting capabilities.

A couple observations about some poor understanding in the quoted post.

First, "they will seldom allow you to shoot out past 100 meter, and almost never past 300 meters" is . . . just ridiculous. Do you think the Marines rely on gunnery sergeats trooping the line during fire fights thumping earnest young marines on the back of the head with a swagger stick if they start drawing a bead past 100 meters?

The limitation on engaging outside the 100/300 meter envelopes has nothing to do with USMC policy, or anyone else's policy in the US military. It is simply that, unlike paper targets that are obliging enough to sit there until you get your breathing under control, line your sights up and slowly squeeze your trigger, real, living, breathing bad guys simply are not overly interested in getting shot. Consequently, they tend to try to blend into their environment, make use of cover and concealment, return fire vigorously and otherwise complicate the act of shooting them at 300+ meters to such an extent that it simply is only rarely done in circumstances where the bad guy is not caught by surprise while in the act of behaving largely like a paper target.

Secondly, if the M16 family of weapons is not known for their long range shooting ability, why have they been dominating Service Rifle competitions with apparently boring regularity?
 
Hey HS, it was humor, perhaps I should have put some smilies on it for you.:) :)

The Marines do a great job of giving folks shooting skills, not sure a 4 year commitment is in the best interest of everyone that wishes to learn some marksmanship.:)
 
I went to Sniper School out in California, using a Winchester with an 80x scope.

I have to agree with Hso....typo? I can't say I've ever heard of an 80X rifle mounted optic.


...the Mini-14, firing the civilian counterpart (Rem.223) would actually carry out to 8000 meters)...(that's not a typo. I said 8000 meters)...


Uhm... Are we talking about some type of theoretical ballistic arc or a shot that would be aimed with the intention of hitting an actual target other than the Planet Earth? I have to call BS on a Mini-14 or a .223 having an 8000 meter effective range.

With a 1 MOA rifle, you'd be looking at an expected group of 80-ish inches-- even IF the rifle was capable of being aimed for that distance or it had enough effective energy to engage the target.

I'm not feeling it.


-- John
 
the maximum range for the M16 is 3534 meters. the mini 14s range isnt double that with the same cartridge. either your full of crap or you believe one of the dumbest things ive ever heard.
 
Starlight = Ultraviolet.

Sure about that? I admit that the Vietnam era stuff was before my time, but all the non-thermals type night vision stuff I've ever been issued (going as far back as the PVS-4) operated in (if I'm not mistaken) the short wave infrared portion of the EM spectrum.
 
I was reading in a gun rag today about what some of the Iraqi insurgents have been capable of doing with milsurp Mausers, commercial hunting rifles, and Dragunov-esque rifles. Basically, shots up to about 500 yards on individual targets of opportunity.

It would be interesting to know the average yardage that our "real honest to God snipers" make most of their kills at. I'll bet it's about the same.

I read that same article. It also described that the insurgent snipers have learned to shoot our troops from the side through the upper arm to defeat their body armour and that they also place a high priority on getting video of their work for propaganda purposes.

I would call that very effective sniping.
 
(Granted, as I say this, a rifleman is nothing to snort at), just saying, to me, you ain't a sniper unless you are making hits @ a 1,000 with a .300 WinMag.


Well, you are asking a lot. First, most sniper shots are no wwhere near 1K M so that is something that is in movies, and books, but usually not in the real world of sniping. I can say from experience that being a qualifed sniper from the US means more than in most thrid world countries, but this doesn't make those single combatants who are using a rifle to kill us NOT snpers. In VN most snipers who were VC or NVA used common AKs or Drugonovs and inflicted many casualties. One can't say that any rouge shooter with a rifle is or isn;t a sniper because the definition of a sniper is different depending on who you talk to.



snip·er (snī'pər)
n.
1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.
See definition 2 for a explination why anyone anywhere can be called a sniper.
 
Sure about that?

My understanding is that it picks up the spectrum running from ultra to IR;
and that the heavenly bodies give off the ultraviolet in the lower end of the
spectrum while the illuminators we use are IR projectors in the higher end.
Our normal human vision is in between.
 
Well I'm intrigued, where did you read about the ultra-violet image intensifiers? My reading has told me that all I.I.'s have been IR, near spectrum for most hand held Gen1,2,3 stuff, and far (long-wave) IR for Thermal Imaging. My basic understanding is that the first devices were made by the Germans early in WW2 as they thought this was the principle the Brits were using for air defence (Radar), and instituted a crash-program to catch up. Turns out they were breaking new ground, and ended up weaponizing the system in late WW2 into rifle scope with a large IR projector and a backpack powersource called 'Vampir' and a similar but larger set-up for tanks, and Vietnam units were just refinements of those. 'Starlight' referring to the lack of an IR projector, but they always help.

Aiui.
 
Years ago in Vietnam (3rd Force Recon) I was propped up against some sand bags out side of my hooch drinking some coffee, and I watched some of my buddies dinging gooks on an old red clay looking hill at ranges exceeding 800 meters. They were getting some hits to. Their weapons? That piece of trash pawned off on us called 'United States Rifle, 5.56 millimeter, caliber M16-A1'.I went to Sniper School out in California, using a Winchester with an 80x scope. I never used it over there, but several times I used my M-14 scoped out, and more than a couple of times I used it rigged out with infra-red. (I never used 'starlight') I spoke, years later, to an Engineer (designer) who work's for Sturm and Ruger, and he told me that the Mini-14, firing the civilian counterpart (Rem.223) would actually carry out to 8000 meters)...(that's not a typo. I said 8000 meters)...



What Winchester was ever used in the VN conflict by any US military as a Sniper weapons system?


And in what world is there an 80X scope attached to ANYTHING shoulder fired? Never in the US Military, US mil uses and has used 10X except for when the .50 was accepted as a SWS. Most scopes in the VN conflict were Leatherwood 10X units with BDC.


Also, a mini 14 firing a .223 to 8K M? Uh.....I'd love to see that cartridge....it dosn't exist unless you mean holding the rifle at a 45 degree angle, and shooting it off a cliff........not an efective range of 8KM yer talking about there.
 
When did the Marines use a scoped M14 during Viet Nam?

And for the arguing about semantics? Who cares? As long as we kill them, I'm calling it good.
 
I don;t know about the Marine Corps, but in the US Army we used, and some units still use, scoped M14s accurized called the XM-25/M25, and the M-21, both of which were accurized M-14s with either a Leatherwood or Bausch & Lomb 10X tactical. The M21 is esentially a modified M14 National Match rifle. The earlier versions (XM21) had a specially selected walnut stock, but this changed with the M21 to a fiberglass stock, often camoflaged. The XM21 began to be fielded in the second half of 1969 and remained the U.S. Army's primary Sniper Weapon System until it began to be replaced by the M24 SWS in 1988. Some National Guard units and even a few active duty units (The OPFOR at JRTC for example) still use the M21. The M21 is a very pratical sniper weapon maintaining acceptable accuracy out to about 700 meters. Besides the problem that it is semi-auto and sends brass flying, the M21 was, and still is, a very capable military sniper rifle. The 10th SFG, in conjuntion with the U.S. Navy SEALs has developed an improved version of the M21 known as the M25. The M25 was designed out of a need for a semi auto sniper rifle, and it was the weapon of choice for SEAL snipers during Desert Storm. The M21 holds a dear spot in many U.S. Army snipers hearts (me included), and rightfully so.
 
Oh, I know about the M21 and M25, but to the best of my knowledge, the Marines never fielded a scoped M14 during Viet Nam. Perhaps I'm wrong, but we have a poster in this thread that says he used one, and I'm curious to hear about it.
 
Also, a mini 14 firing a .223 to 8K M? Uh.....I'd love to see that cartridge....it dosn't exist unless you mean holding the rifle at a 45 degree angle, and shooting it off a cliff........not an efective range of 8KM yer talking about there.

A .223 55 gr boattail starting out at 3100 fps is down to 1004 fps at 1000 yards and is down to 1/10 the energy (123 lbs).

At 2000 yards, it is down to 678 fps and 56 lbs energy
At 3000 yards, 520 fps and 33 lbs
At 4000 yards, 426 fps and 22 lbs

And so on with more than 100K inches of drop by 8000 yards and a velocity so low that it is simply gravitational drop velocity. In other words, more than 1.6 miles of drop at 8000 yards.
 
A question of terminology,

As so many have said.

The Soviet/Russian conception of "snipers is " is probably closest to what the Iraqi partisans are using. That makes sense, really, given that the Iraqi army used primarily Soviet equipment and doctrine. And, of course, the fact that nowhere outside of the Army or security police would an Iraqi under the age of 40 have had the opportunity to learn to shoot well enough. It was a police state, after all. Armed citizens? Right.

As I understand it, with some few famous exceptions, none of whose names I can remember (or spell), the Soviet "sniper" was more like what we used to call a "sharpshooter", back in the Civil War. A member of a small unit, typically a better shot than the average infantryman, using weapons that have been selected out of regular issue production for improved accuracy, but not typically heavily modified, maybe a rugged, low-fixed-power scope, if anything. Such men are used to deliver precision aimed fire at particular (usually important, but not always) targets, as compared to the less-well-directed "area" fire of a line infantry unit. They could be deployed individually, dispersed around a larger infantry unit, in small teams, or en masse, as needed.

We wouldn't consider such men "snipers." I don't know that the US Army still fields "sharpshooters" in this sense. We used to, but may well have stopped. I did my time in Uncle Sam's Yacht Club, so I'm not at all up to speed on current US ground-pounder doctrine.

All of which is a round-about way of trying to revive the term "sharpshooter" for this kind of person.

--Shannon

PS: The use of the term "partisan" is intentional. Not out of a desire for strict neutrality (or it's opposite), but in search of accuracy. It's the only term that seems to fit well. "Insurgent" implies someone trying to overthrow a government, and lots of these guys work for the government. "Terrorist" doesn't cover groups of irregulars fighting on behalf of some faction in the government, nor those who just want to get rid of "outsiders" in their lands, nor necessarily those who fit the definition of "insurgent" . There are groups in Iraq that fit any (and sometimes all) of these terms, but "partisan" was as close as I could think of to an accurate universal one-word label.
 
According Senich's "Complete Book of US Sniping" and "The Long-Range War", both Army and Marine snipers used Winchester Model 70s for at least the first part of the Vietnam war; many of these were "off the rack" hunting and target rifles, since the 03A3s they still had in the supply system weren't capapble of anywhere near the performance necessary.
 
I have my copy of Marine Sniper 93 Confirmed Kills by Charles Henderson here in front of my. According to Mr. Henderson Carlos Hathcock's primary weapon during his first tour was a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06, with an 8X Unertl scope, also according to Mr. Henderson when working in pairs it was customary for the "Spotter" to use a scoped M14 in support. Late during that tour they began to get the Rem 700s and got more during his 2nd tour.

Also while I have not done a lot of real long range shooting, I have taken several deer at 250 to 350, and quite a bit of 300-400 yard target shooting with both the 30-06 and 270. With decent optics and equipment I feel comfortable with my ability to hit torso size targets a 500 yards. BTW I am a firm believer in free hand target practice. When I was doing a lot of shooting I was regularly able to shoot 5 and 6 inch 5 shot groups at 150 to 200 yards. No rest, off hand "snap shooting". I have often shot with others who were considerably better than I.
 
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The ultraviolet region extends from 100 to 400 nm with the near-ultraviolet nominally 300 to 400 nm. The visible portion of the spectrum extends from 400 to 750nm. The infrared region extends from 750 to 2xlO5 nm with the near-infrared nominally 750 to 2,500 nm.

The "visible portion" is what we see with the naked eye. We would have to
know the range of the spectrum covered by any given tube in any particular
NVD.
 
Thin Black Line, how about just posting the specs on the supposed UV NV system used in 'nam. You claimed that the Starlight = UV. Starlight scopes worked using infrared-sensitive photocathode, not a UV-sensitive photocathode...or do you know of some other development from the 1960s used in 'nam that was UV?
 
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