Battle rifles for snipers?

[Trebor]

I interviewed an instructor at the Army Sniping School at Ft Benning last year. He told me some of the same things Matt (Travis McGee) said in his post. Listen to Matt, he knows what he's talking about.

Current U.S. sniper doctrine is set up for Vietnam era engagements. The doctrine and training are in the middle of a transformation to be more suitable for urban warfare. To give a couple examples, currently there is no training given on how to set up a sniper hide in a city or how to compensate for the "wind tunnel" effects nearby tall buildings have on the trajectory of the bullet.

The next general issue Sniper weapon is probably going to be an AR variant in 7.62 Nato. The 5.56 M-16/M-4's with accuracy tuning, ACOG's (or other low powered optics) will become more prevelant as Squad Designated Marksmans's Rifles.

The M-14 is on it's way out as a Sniper or Designated Marksmans Weapon. There is no logistical support for the weapon and there are no school trained armorers in this weapon. The weapons operation and field maintainence requirements are different from those of the standard infantry weapons. As the AR in 7.62 comes on line, the M-14's will be pulled. Parts and maintaince issues will have sent many of them off the field by then anyway.

 

[Mr. Loud Guns]

Over in Iraq the primary sniper rifle of the marines is the barrett m82 special applications scoped rifles. PS : any rifle that is under 1moa is not considered a sniper rifle. MOST sniper rifles are under 1/2 moa accuracy. Russia uses a 22lr rifle as a sniper rifle S?? 99. Most sniper rifles are in .308 while most police remington 700 pss are in .223. Now days with the needs of the long distance shooter in mind the 50bmg rifle round is becoming the primary sniper cartridge. My 50 bmg can easily due -1moa

 

[Zak Smith]

while most police remington 700 pss are in .223.

Cite.

any rifle that is under 1moa is not considered a sniper rifle. MOST sniper rifles are under 1/2 moa accuracy.

Please cite the accuracy standards for a variety of issued sniper rifles, before claiming this.

 

[Burt Blade]

"Sniper" is a skill set, not a weapon.

It is far more about stalking than shooting. Snipers tend to do more damage with a good radio, allowing them to "snipe" with a Hellfire missile, 155mm artillery barrage, or a flight of F-15Es ands their 2000-pound smart bombs.

Rifles are not "sniper", unless used by a person with such skills. Granted, a sniper is more effective with a good precision rifle, but a sniper is almost as deadly with an issue infantry weapon.

Now imagine if we told every Infantryman, "You hold in your hands a fine precision rifle, capable of hitting any man-sized target at ranges exceeding 600 meters. We will teach you how to hit an enemy at that range, each and every time you pull the trigger. You will control any place you can see, and kill any enemy you see.

An issue M-16 in good shape, using decent ammunition, that holds the usual 1.5 - 2 MOA can hit a 12 inch circle at 600m, every time. That is more than enough to bag an enemy soldier (or terrorist nincompoop).

All it takes is a good instructor and a willing student. Once you master a good trigger press and the art of estimating wind effects, _any_ decent shooter can do this. An army of such "marksmen", accompanied by some sniper teams, is going to go through an urban enemy stronghold like crap through a goose.

 

[eurohacker]

Are you sure the .223 has enough power left when it's there?

 

[eurohacker]

It would seem foolish to dismantle the old school sniper program altogether. There will always be a need for the Carlos Hathcocks

Rather, I think they should shrink it down and funnel most people into a dedicated urban marksman program or something like that. Or make the sniper program an add-on course to that, for the real hardcore people.

 

[Blackhawk 6]

The challenge when redesigning any training program is to not only make it relevant to the problems of today, but the problems of tomorrow as well. This is not a problem unique to Sniper School. In 1995, the U.S. Army Ranger School dropped the Desert Phase because it was costly and unecessary. Oops!

Turning the U.S. Army Sniper School into an urban sniper school would be an enormous mistake. Admittedly, graduates of the course are not fully prepared to operate in an urban environment and this needs to be addressed.

However, to disregard stalking as "a thing of the past" is foolish. There may indeed be a requirement to have snipers who are capable of operating independantly and who can stalk their target. Afghanistan is ripe for independant sniping missions, but commanders' lack of confidence in their sniper teams, often well founded, prevents them from being employed in that fashion.

Suppose, for example, 10 or 15 years from now we begin committing large numbers of troops to Columbia in an escalation of the War on Drugs. As the environment is similar to Vietnam, our military what look at what worked well and not so well in Vietnam. Snipers were clearly an effective tool and will likely be required to perform the same "stalk and shoot" mission that are no being declared obsolete. We will be redesigning the course again, and finding old retired snipers to explain the "old" ways to us. Bad business. Korea could be another venue where sniping requirements may differ from those of today.

I believe the proper answer is to add an urban operations block to the existing course. I would expect a week would be sufficient. Some commanders with have been supplementing their snipers training in a similar fashion for years. In the mid-90's, mine sent two of my snipers to train on urban sniping with the USSS.

Are you sure the .223 has enough power left when it's there?

The 5.56mm does not have a lot of energy at 600 meters but it has more than enough to kill someone.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

Over in Iraq the primary sniper rifle of the marines is the barrett m82 special applications scoped rifles...Russia uses a 22lr rifle as a sniper rifle...Now days with the needs of the long distance shooter in mind the 50bmg rifle round is becoming the primary sniper cartridge

A rifle that is five feet long and weighs 30 pouns is not the primary weapon of a USMC scout sniper. As noted in the nomenclature of the weapon, it is a special application rifle.

.22lr?

I'm no Sniper myself, but I have served in Iraq, and I know that much of the action there is MOUT (urban). It would make sense to me that many shots are indeed relatively short in such a compact terrain. It would also make sense that, in such terrain, a giant .50BMG rifle would be far less than ideal.

The more I think about it, the more I can see the application of a semi-automatic rifle in such an environment.

PS : any rifle that is under 1moa is not considered a sniper rifle. MOST sniper rifles are under 1/2 moa accuracy.........My 50 bmg can easily due -1moa

Despite the assertion regarding MOA requirements, I find it hard to believe that your .50 is insufficient for precision shooting at long range. 1moa = a 10" group at 1000 yards. Not too shabby, considering more realistic (shorter) yardages and that the types of targets the .50 excels at engaging (vehicles, other material targets) are usually pretty big.

 

[Crosshair]

Sergeant Sabre

.22lr?

As crazy as it sounds the Russians DO have a 22LR sniper rifle. It is called the SV-99, it is a suppressed, straight pull bolt action rifle. It has proved quite effective in combat where stealth is more important than range.

SV-99 Sniper Rifle

Anyone know if they import them to the US.

 

[VG]

The Army and Marine Corps have grueling training courses for snipers. The Army course regularly fails out 50% of the class.

Sniper rifles are bolt action 7.62 rifles. The Army and USMC use different models but they are similar in specification. American Rifleman tests of the out-of-the-box Army rifle yielded 1.5" groups at 300 meters with the military Match ammo.

Both the Army and Marine Corps are also using the .50 cal Barrett. The new Stryker Brigades have a Sniper team at the Battalion level organized so they deploy as two man 7.62 teams or 3 man .50 cal teams.

Now here's where it gets interesting. For urban sniping (usually 300 meters but many targets) the bolt rifles were found unnecessary and demand for a semi-auto like the M14 increased. There were two versions of the M14 sniper rifle, but with unit funds and aftermarket parts many units updated their M14's to be used more as a "Designated Marksman" role.

In the Army only infantrymen can be snipers. But there were pictures and news articles released early in the conflict about a Cavalry "sniper" who killed 7 Iraqis in a week with an M14 equipped with optical sights. But he isn't a "Sniper" officially and didn't have an official "Sniper" rifle.

The Army also has a role called Designated Marksman but he is usually equipped with an M4 Carbine, not the M14.

 

[Mr. Loud Guns]

Where I had that annoying - mark before the 1moa please ignore that on my previous post

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

SV-99 Sniper Rifle

Fascinating. I suppose it may have an application. Perhaps inconspicuously downing sentries before a raid or something.

I wonder if it saw any action...

 

[artherd]

My Barrett M82A1 is a fantastic gun, but it will do 1.5MOA tops. On a good day.

It will still mess the heck up a vehicle at 1,000+yds, but it is not what I would call a 'precision' rifle. Rather, it makes up for that with API rounds carrying ~14,000lb/ft of energy.

No, if I were going after people, I would grab my Armalite AR-30 .338 Lapua Mag (1/2MOA bolt gun.)

Stoner SR-25 in .308 makes a mighty fine 1/2MOA gas gun. Issue the crap out of 'em I say!!!

 

[RevDisk]

Current U.S. sniper doctrine is set up for Vietnam era engagements. The doctrine and training are in the middle of a transformation to be more suitable for urban warfare. To give a couple examples, currently there is no training given on how to set up a sniper hide in a city or how to compensate for the "wind tunnel" effects nearby tall buildings have on the trajectory of the bullet.

Yep. We're having a bit of problems in that area. Thankfully, long distance shooting in MOUT is slightly more rare. With urban 'sniping', speed is rather important. Accuracy is good, but if you're not quick, you're not getting a second chance.

Standing in the middle of a street rather than against any wall takes some getting used to. "Wind tunnel" effect, as you say.

The next general issue Sniper weapon is probably going to be an AR variant in 7.62 Nato. The 5.56 M-16/M-4's with accuracy tuning, ACOG's (or other low powered optics) will become more prevelant as Squad Designated Marksmans's Rifles.

The M-14 is on it's way out as a Sniper or Designated Marksmans Weapon. There is no logistical support for the weapon and there are no school trained armorers in this weapon. The weapons operation and field maintainence requirements are different from those of the standard infantry weapons. As the AR in 7.62 comes on line, the M-14's will be pulled. Parts and maintaince issues will have sent many of them off the field by then anyway.

M24 (basically a Rem 700BDL) has been the US Army standard sniper rifle since 1987. The M21 is the US Army designated marksman rifle since 1971. Both work extremely well. The M21 is based off the M14, but they are not the exact same weapon. The M21 was updated in 1991 and is now called the M25.

FYI, there is indeed logistical support for the M21/M25, as well as armourers. The M25 for instance uses a McMillan M2A bedded stock. I'm fairly sure McMillan is still in business, but I might be wrong. Springfield Armory used to maintain the M21/M25 family, but I'm not sure if they still do. All the M21/M25's I've seen were worked over by civilian contractors.

Over in Iraq the primary sniper rifle of the marines is the barrett m82 special applications scoped rifles...Russia uses a 22lr rifle as a sniper rifle...Now days with the needs of the long distance shooter in mind the 50bmg rifle round is becoming the primary sniper cartridge

The M107 is not a replacement for the M25 nor the M24. It has other applications, but can (and is) be used as a sniper rifle if the situation arises. One of the more common uses is disposing of UXO and such by EOD teams.

The Marines use the M40A3. It's a Rem 700 worked over by armorers at Quantico.

any rifle that is under 1moa is not considered a sniper rifle. MOST sniper rifles are under 1/2 moa accuracy.

Off hand, I remember the M24 as having a book accuracy of 1 MOA with M118 ammo.

(Yes, it can have superior accuracy with commercial match grade ammo, maybe pushing it under 1/2 moa. Assuming your ammo supply guy can order civvie ammo.)

In the Army only infantrymen can be snipers. But there were pictures and news articles released early in the conflict about a Cavalry "sniper" who killed 7 Iraqis in a week with an M14 equipped with optical sights. But he isn't a "Sniper" officially and didn't have an official "Sniper" rifle.

The Army also has a role called Designated Marksman but he is usually equipped with an M4 Carbine, not the M14.

Erm. Technically, no. Sniper school is open to anyone holding an MOS of 11B, 11M, or 18 series. If I remember correctly, it doesn't have to be their current MOS, they just have to be qual'd. They might have changed that, I heard some discussion about making the MOS waiverable but I haven't heard of any changes.

The M14 with scope is the M21 or M25. It is the official "designated marksman rifle". And yes, designated marksmen can be issued M21's or M25's. Bit obvious, that.

 

[Mr. Loud Guns]

I always wanted one of those ar-30's in .338.

 

[Carnitas]

I dont see why it has to be an all or nothing deal.

It makes sense to me that in basic training, recruits with unusual skill with the rifle be culled into a some extra marksmanship training and issued a lightly tuned and scoped AR that would turn them into the squads Designated Marksman or whatever you want to call them. The DM's that pan out in a line unit get sent to a "Sniper" school that would school them on the special weapons (M25's, 50's etc) and equip them with a well rounded but basic set stalking and urban sniper/mount skills. That would probably be 95% of what the military needs in this tactical role. I small handfull of guys could be trained further for the final 5% of uber-Hathcock long stalk, or long urban type of shooting mission.

 

[Dr. J Frame]

The AR-10 is also in use by US contractors and may be in use by US Forces.

Locally, DPMS now has a military contract being filled for their LR .308 AR rifle. Management says they are currently seeing Middle-East service. Branch unknown, but the guy was former 3rd Group SF and said "we are now deploying...". I'm guessing it's Army or he probably wouldn't have said "we".