Bear defense rifle

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skippy1729

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A while back I started to research a rifle for bear defense (not hunting). I looked at a variety of "scout rifles". While I realise that shot placement is more important than caliber, other things being equal, the 308/7.62 is not the best round available for this task. I finally decided to get a Marlin 1895SBL in 45-70. Before I ordered one, I saw a magazine at the grocery store checkout with a cover story on big bore AR15s; Beowulf 50, SOCOM 458 and Bushmaster 450. All of these seem to be in the right ball park ballistically and in the same 7-8 pound range as the Marlin. The advantage of a semi-auto is obvious, I might get off more than one or two rounds before a really "close encounter". The advantage of the Marlin is the very high reliability of a quality lever-action.

I know that there have been advances in AR15 reliability, gas piston systems and things. Do any of the current big bore AR15 rifles use a gas piston system rather than a DGI system? Although it is largely subjective, "felt recoil" is a combined effect of cartridge and rifle. Does anyone here have experience with one of these "big bore" AR15s and a ballistically comparable 45-70 in a lever-action or bolt-action rifle?

My priorities (in order) are 1) all weather reliability, 2) shot placement, 3) ballistics, 4) felt recoil, 5) cost and aesthetics.

Any suggestions other than what I have mentioned are welcome. Thanks, Skippy
 
the big bore ar's ar fine but in my opinion the levergun is better, less to go wrong, ammo is available but i would consider a rossi 454 casull. It has a quick lever throw and higher capacity with a similar ballistics.
 
of your ar picks id go with with the 458socom
based solely on current bullet availability
lots of things use that diameter bullet
 
Don't know where you got your ballistics from but stout 45-70 loads beat the Beowulf 50, by around 500fps, and about 1200lb of energy. That's a big difference, pick up a used Marlin 45-70 for around $450 and call it a day, unless you are looking for an excuse to get an AR,, if that's the case week get the AR. One thing to think about how many parts do AR's have? I'm not sure about them but Marlins have relatively few things to go wrong with them.
 
Go to Alaska, Africa, or anywhere else where folks actually use rifles for defense against large animal attacks on a regular basis. The first choice is a double rifle, but costs that can easily reach 5 digits rule them out for most.

The #1 choice is always a quality CRF bolt rifle. You won't see anyone using a semi-auto or a cowboy gun. Neither is reliable enough for me to bet my life on. Leverguns are the most complex, most likely to malfunction of all the repeaters. When loaded with hot 45-70 ammo are the slowest for accurate repeat shots.

You say you want:

My priorities (in order) are 1) all weather reliability, 2) shot placement, 3) ballistics, 4) felt recoil, 5) cost and aesthetics.
Click to expand...



You want a stainless CRF bolt rifle. A Ruger or Winchester will easliy beat either an AR or levergun in all of these categories and cost less to boot. You don't need a cannon. Properly loaded a 30-06 will give you complete penetration on any bear on the planet.
 
Are these little black "Smokey the Bears" that want to eat your sandwich?

Or big & grumpy Grizzly, Brown, or Polar bears that want to eat you??

If #1, I'd go with my Winchester 94 30-30, or Marlin .44 Mag 1894P.

If #2, I'd go with a pump shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs.

rc
 
The #1 choice is always a quality CRF bolt rifle. You won't see anyone using a semi-auto or a cowboy gun. Neither is reliable enough for me to bet my life on. Leverguns are the most complex, most likely to malfunction of all the repeaters. When loaded with hot 45-70 ammo are the slowest for accurate repeat shots.
Click to expand...

Actually, the Marlin Guide Gun is extremely popular in Alaska. Even more popular is a pump shotgun. Of course, we're talking about fishing, camping, berry picking, etc, not hunting. Any platform that is compact and reasonably lightweight will serve.

SummerBerry.jpg
 
I would tend to think that a bolt gun would be the choice for hunting a bear, not for bear protection. These are 2 very different things. A bolt gun is far more cumbersome than a carbine, much more likely to be put down, or slung, because of its awkwardness in tight areas, or its weight.

As to the mechanical failure rate of quality lever action rifles, well, let me draw upon an analogy. A hammer is more complex than a rock, but I wouldn't expect either to fail when pounding in a nail. (Yeah, I know that was snarky, but really.)

Let's take a quick look a self defence situations with bear (or any dangerous predator). If you aren't hunting it, you probably won't shoot it unless it is with 50 yards (or actively trying to kill you regardless of range). Inside of 50 yards, a bolt gun is not my first choice. I want something that handles nimbly, hits very hard, has a fast repeat capability that doesn't take my hands or the weapon out of shooting position, and is reliable. Iron sights, or a sturdy red dot sight is preferable, and magnified optics are definately out. The choices that come to mind are shotguns, lever actions and semi-autos.

Of the semi-autos that come to mind, only the Springfield SOCOM M1A rifle has the proven reliability, handling characteristics and caliber for me. I like the idea of a few quick carefully aimed shots, before dumping the rest of the magazine into COM. Against the really big bears, a one shot stop doesn't seem likely.

Of the shotguns, I'd take a pump over a semi-auto and load with heavy 3" slugs. Recoil will be a beast, but the slugs will hit really hard.

Of the lever actions, I'd take a short throw 454 Casull over a 45/70 for a little quicker action. I also believe lever actions work better with shorter cartridges, but I have no proof for that. A short LA carbine is very easy to carry around. More than a shotgun, semi-auto or bolt action gun. I'd pair the LA with Ruger's Alaskan revolver in the same cartridge, because even a tidy little carbine is gonna be put down once in a while.

Now if you're gonna hunt bear, I can suggest this cute little single shot Ruger that my friend just bought in 458 Lott.

And if anyone is gonna start arguing shot placement, then I call dibs on that 12 year old eskimo girl with the 22. :)
 
Are these little black "Smokey the Bears" that want to eat your sandwich?

Or big & grumpy Grizzly, Brown, or Polar bears that want to eat you??

If #1, I'd go with my Winchester 94 30-30, or Marlin .44 Mag 1894P.

If #2, I'd go with a pump shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs.

rc
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+1 :)
 
Bear DEFENSE? A big can of bear spray. They have a sense of smell ten times that of a dog, and pepper spray will burn up a dog so bad they forget everything but the nose. Since they don't experience ill will or hate, simply respond to stimuli for the most part, the pepper spray works wonders. Besides, you spray one and it has a bad experience, it will teach its young to stay away. You shoot them, the subsequent generations never learn this. They come up to you curious sometimes. Sometimes they smell food. The ones that have never seen humans are pretty brave, but the ones that have, especially ones that have long histories with humans (the Smokies in the Smokies --those black bears KNOW people) they usually run, I've only ever seen their tales going away from me.

What I'd do is if I were going into the lower 48 or anywhere but Alaska, would be to carry a big can of the spray, a rope long enough to lift my ruck with food off the ground away from the camp, a large pistol (.357, .41, 10mm, .44) just in case (plus they are fun on hikes, just to plink). For Alaska, I understand the ones in the know don't use $30,000 double rifles, but rather $300 pump shotguns. Like a Mossberg 500 with slugs. And most of those Nat Geo guys, their guides are carrying shotguns too. Sometimes they carry a dart gun along with it, but they always have that shotgun in Kodiak territory.

For the 48, I'd be much more worried about being attacked by a puma or wolf, and then that would be quite rare, and actually an attack by another human would be more possible and dire in consequence. Hence the big spray and a large calibre/magnum pistol.

I have a Beowulf and I have no doubt it would floor a bear. Those of you that have doubts, well, I guess I have to have doubts about your experience with the weapon or your math skills otherwise, because that thing is a beast. A lot like a shotgun slug but with much more penetration (depending on the load). Still, I think you would be better off with a nice big can of spray and a big handgun. For hiking anyway.

If going backcountry for extended times, I'd go with a shotgun and a .22 and probably leave the bear spray due to weight --but take greater pains to stay clear of bears. To me, killing bears in the wild is like walking in a museum and burning all the paintings. It just ruins the place. The more I can do to leave them alone the better. When the numbers get out of control, they'll start a hunt if they don't level off naturally.
 
A bolt gun is far more cumbersome than a carbine, much more likely to be put down, or slung, because of its awkwardness in tight areas, or its weight.
Click to expand...

There are short action, short barreled, carbine bolt rifles. Mine is a Model 7 in .350 Rem Mag. Most people simply don't know how to shoot a bolt action rifle without breaking their sight picture, but if you practice it you lose nothing to any other action type.

In the long run, it's about compactness, weight, fast and accurate shooting. Whether that's with a pump, lever or bolt doesn't really enter into it.
 
Strykervet said:
Bear DEFENSE? A big can of bear spray. They have a sense of smell ten times that of a dog, and pepper spray will burn up a dog so bad they forget everything but the nose. Since they don't experience ill will or hate, simply respond to stimuli for the most part, the pepper spray works wonders. Besides, you spray one and it has a bad experience, it will teach its young to stay away. You shoot them, the subsequent generations never learn this. They come up to you curious sometimes. Sometimes they smell food. The ones that have never seen humans are pretty brave, but the ones that have, especially ones that have long histories with humans (the Smokies in the Smokies --those black bears KNOW people) they usually run, I've only ever seen their tales going away from me.

What I'd do is if I were going into the lower 48 or anywhere but Alaska, would be to carry a big can of the spray, a rope long enough to lift my ruck with food off the ground away from the camp, a large pistol (.357, .41, 10mm, .44) just in case (plus they are fun on hikes, just to plink). For Alaska, I understand the ones in the know don't use $30,000 double rifles, but rather $300 pump shotguns. Like a Mossberg 500 with slugs. And most of those Nat Geo guys, their guides are carrying shotguns too. Sometimes they carry a dart gun along with it, but they always have that shotgun in Kodiak territory.

For the 48, I'd be much more worried about being attacked by a puma or wolf, and then that would be quite rare, and actually an attack by another human would be more possible and dire in consequence. Hence the big spray and a large calibre/magnum pistol.

I have a Beowulf and I have no doubt it would floor a bear. Those of you that have doubts, well, I guess I have to have doubts about your experience with the weapon or your math skills otherwise, because that thing is a beast. A lot like a shotgun slug but with much more penetration (depending on the load). Still, I think you would be better off with a nice big can of spray and a big handgun. For hiking anyway.

If going backcountry for extended times, I'd go with a shotgun and a .22 and probably leave the bear spray due to weight --but take greater pains to stay clear of bears. To me, killing bears in the wild is like walking in a museum and burning all the paintings. It just ruins the place. The more I can do to leave them alone the better. When the numbers get out of control, they'll start a hunt if they don't level off naturally.
Click to expand...
I have no problem killing bear in either defense or in case of hunting.

All that being said, I know bear spray has great potential but in areas where wind is a factor I would be very hesitant to use it. Last thing I think anyone wants is a face full of bear spray, while they are being mauled to death by a bear. I would prefer a magnum handgun any day over bear spray, but that may just be me. Bullets don't get blown back in your face by the wind.
 
An AR-15 is mechanically simpler than a lever gun. Don't go piston, they're a gimmick. Use good lubricant (Slip 2000 EWL) and you'll be fine. Go with a .50 Beowulf.
 
Food for thought.

Your chance of being killed by bee & hornet stings or lightening is about 10 times greater then being killed by a bear.
Falling trees about 30 times higher.

So, what brand of Bug Spray, Faraday Cage, and Chain Saw should I carry?

rc
 
Since you stated that it would be a defense gun, I would stick to my marlin 450. It has a 16 1/2 inch barrel. Since it is defense this is a very lightweight accessory item that can be carried easily in a back back while fishing,hiking, or picking berries.
 
how bout a can of bear spray and a 454 casull carbine? My casull would go through just about anything with hollows or hard cast and was easy to follow up and accurate too.
 
I own and have used my "95" Marlin in 45/70 for some time now. I have also been on the recieving end of one bear (black) charge. The charge was from about 10 yards and I barely had time for one shot forget about repeated shots aint going to happen. The Marlin with beartooth's 525gr Piledriver bullet will smack down the most determined charge even from a griz.Basically your going to get one shot and you have to make it count. The Marlin is fast and light and recoil is substantial but its been used on Cape Buffalo, Hippo etc with good results. FRJ
 
rori said:
I own and have used my "95" Marlin in 45/70 for some time now. I have also been on the recieving end of one bear (black) charge. The charge was from about 10 yards and I barely had time for one shot forget about repeated shots aint going to happen. The Marlin with beartooth's 525gr Piledriver bullet will smack down the most determined charge even from a griz.Basically your going to get one shot and you have to make it count. The Marlin is fast and light and recoil is substantial but its been used on Cape Buffalo, Hippo etc with good results. FRJ
Click to expand...
Did you kill it?
 
Your chance of being killed by bee & hornet stings or lightening is about 10 times greater then being killed by a bear.
Falling trees about 30 times higher.

So, what brand of Bug Spray, Faraday Cage, and Chain Saw should I carry?
Click to expand...

LOL

I wish there was a "like" button on here!
 
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