before I answer THIS student, I thot I'd see if anyone else wanted toparticipate ...

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WAGCEVP

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in this little education project :)
No flames, ok... remember there are two sides to every "debate" - these two just happen to be unlucky ennuff to get stuck with the anti side - doesn't neccessarily mean they are anti......
i'll post my answers as soon as I finish them....
any takers?


here's her original note:

----- Original Message -----
From: mary jo
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:43 AM
Subject: gun control questions


Hello, my name is Mary Jo and I am doing a debate in school where my partner and I are pro-gun control laws. We have to interview two people, and were wondering if you would be interested in answering a few of our questions. It would probably be over e-mail so we would send you 5 questions and then you reply with the answers. Hope to talk to you soon!
~Mary Jo H. OR




----------------------------------------
I replied back That I would be glad to help


---------------------
her relpy:

OK here goes...
Nancy, we understand that your organization is against gun control. Could you tell us some reasons why, and if you have any experiences that you would like to share (i.e., One time someone broke into my home and I felt that I needed to protect my family so I shot them in the foot) then that would be great! How do you feel about the gun control laws that are in use at the moment? Do you think that the government is just wasting their time trying to control guns? Do you think that EVERYONE should be allowed to own a gun, or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get ahold of guns? These are all the questions that we have at the moment, but I'm sure once you send answers I will have more. If while anytime reading anything I send you, you notice that I have made a false statement or contradicted myself please let me know because I really want to know facts, and I don't want to sound stupid! Thank you for replying so quickly and answering our questions!

Mary Jo H.
 
heeeeeeelllppp :)

On second thot! SHOULD I be helping her? Is she sincere in wanting to know the facts or is she fishing for stuff that her opponents might come up with? and use it against them..... I wouldn't want to do anything that might hurt the pro gun side debate, right?

I sent her Oleg's Site and Guncite.com all ready , should I leave it at that?
 
Those 2 links should in themselves be well useful .... but I guess you are to a degree - questioning motives. Probably wise.

Let's say this .... as far as we are concerned, certain things are incontravertible ... in fact some of the posts in that epic thread (started by - Charles ? was it .. title and link escape me... sorry) ..... cover what needs covered. One or two posts by Trisha for instance were excellent and stood up well on their own .. just as examples.

Can you track down that thread .. and selct some stuff carefully. Most really cogent points do not IMO actually have an argument . they are too conclusive.

Sorry not to help more positively for now.
 
16 pages? wow!

Thanks, I kept up with it for awhile ........... I'll go back thru
 
Could you tell us some reasons why [you oppose gun control], and if you have any experiences that you would like to share (i.e., One time someone broke into my home and I felt that I needed to protect my family so I shot them in the foot) then that would be great!
Click to expand...
I oppose gun control because it does not target dangerous people who should not own guns, it targets those who already obey laws. Gun control cannot stop criminals from getting their hands on guns (they'll just hide them in routine cocaine shipments), but it does stop law-abiding citizens from getting them.
How do you feel about the gun control laws that are in use at the moment?
Click to expand...
Very few of the gun laws currently on the book are helpful.
Are you aware of the laws currently in effect?
Do you think that the government is just wasting their time trying to control guns?
Click to expand...
They're certainly wasting their time trying to control my guns. I obey gun control laws, but by the same token I obey laws saying not to shoot people with them, and not to intimidate people with them. It's not the gun laws that prevent me from using my guns to hurt people. And if I were a criminal who was willing to hurt someone, why would I care about a gun law?
Do you think that EVERYONE should be allowed to own a gun, or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get ahold of guns?
Click to expand...
The way I see it, if you can't trust someone enough to own a gun, you can't trust them to own a car, or a tire iron, or a can of gasoline, or a knife. In fact, in my opinion - if you can't trust someone to be responsible with a gun, you can't trust them to live in our society at all.
 
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sweet , Cordex

short and too the point, maybe that's the way I should do it first instead of try to spell it out all at once , I'd be answering the question yet not helping her too much..
 
Could you tell us some reasons why, and if you have any experiences that you would like to share (i.e., One time someone broke into my home and I felt that I needed to protect my family so I shot them in the foot) then that would be great!

I'll give one here: I lived on the edge of a crack neigborhood in college. There were multiple times that a drugged individual would attempt to break into the window next to my bed. Yes I always had to use a firearm to resolve the problem, luckily my unloaded 12 ga. pump shotgun worked. But I did have a .38 super loaded and ready just in case. Sorry nobody shot but that IS the point. I was security and knew of the many thingsthat could and did happen.

As to the individuals motives, who knows. The point is we said we'ld help and even ifthey twist it our responses should be prompt, kind, honest and above reproach. Hopefull theirs will too.

David
 
Nancy, we understand that your organization is against gun control. Could you tell us some reasons why, and if you have any experiences that you would like to share (i.e., One time someone broke into my home and I felt that I needed to protect my family so I shot them in the foot) then that would be great!
Click to expand...

While I have never shot an intruder in my home in the foot I do have nightmares about such things. I'm well aware that may aim is not what it should be and under high stress such a thing might just happen. For this reason I am very fond of gun control. Firing shots into an invaders foot is just not prudent. Delivering two rapid shots to their center of mass would be far better for me and for anybody living nearby me. That's good gun control.

How do you feel about the gun control laws that are in use at the moment?
Click to expand...

I've tried to follow the gun control laws but I have found that I've violated them many of times after the fact. I've never used arms to threaten another human being or to cause harm to another but I've still violated a few laws here and there rest assured. Not intentionally, mind you, but what with with the single state of Michigan having a firearms lawbook that amounts to 128pages printed out I just try and stick to the basics: Don't shoot anybody. When traveling I simply do not have the mental capacity to digest all foreign firearms laws entirely so I am sure I violate them from time to time.

I try to abide by them, I really do, but I just can't. I have a cousin that deals coke though. He doesn't care about the laws. He's even shot people before. It's easier for him to get a new pistol than me though.

I'm afraid that the quality of my life just hasn't been positively affected by gun control laws. I'd rather they went away. My coke dealing cousin doesnt' care either way seeing as how they don't really affect him.

Do you think that the government is just wasting their time trying to control guns?
Click to expand...

Prohibition failed to keep alcohol away from the citizenry and the war on drugs has failed to keep our now illegal drugs out of the hands of children. I'm at a total loss as to how the government thinks they'll keep firearms out of the hands of criminals. Thus, I do think it is a waste of their time and taxpayer money. I find this especially disturbing seeing as how alcohol and drugs provide very little benefit to the citizenry. At the very least a pistol offers you the ability to feed and protect yourself. The citizenry has broken the law to obtain substances which provide no benefit to them. Why would they not break the law to obtain something that does have a practical benefit? If a law will be broken by the common man it should not be a law of the land.

Do you think that EVERYONE should be allowed to own a gun, or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get ahold of guns?
Click to expand...

Homicidal maniacs should be locked in prison cells until they have been rehabilitated or passed on due to natural (or unnatural) causes. I've never seen a pro-gun person state that prisoners should be armed and I will not be the first to do so. With that said anybody outside the walls of prison or the county jail should be able to own a firearm. I am, of course, excepting the guards themselves which work their shifts inside said places. Given that they are not imprisoned themselves they should, of course, be free to carry arms during their course of duty.

....

It started out a little too pro-gunny, but the rest of it was pretty rational I think.
 
oooooh boy.

(i.e., One time someone broke into my home and I felt that I needed to protect my family so I shot them in the foot)
Click to expand...

In the foot? No, no, no, no, no... What is someone doing in my house? I don't run a bed and breakfast or a road lodge. If they're in my house, they're after me or my hard-earned possessions. If it comes to that, I'll shoot them in the face, thankyouverymuch.

How do you feel about the gun control laws that are in use at the moment? Do you think that the government is just wasting their time trying to control guns?
Click to expand...

Gun Control laws are completely useless. Just as the sun can only shine on what's above ground, laws only affect those willing to follow them. Anyone determined to get a gun will get it, regardless of what the comb-overs on the hill say.

Don't get me started on the Government. The role of the government, given the country's founding document, is to safeguard freedom. Nowhere in the Constitution does it give the Government the powers to restrict ANYTHING. The role of the government is to punish people when they trample the rights of others, ie: when someone steals my property, they pay restitution and are punished; if someone kills another, they are punished. In other words, if I'm 18 and want to drink alcohol, who is the Government to say I can't? Now, if I hurt someone while under the influence, I should be punished. Likewise, if I want to own a Thompson submachinegun, who cares? If I HURT someone with it, then I should be punished.

It's as simple as that.

Do you think that EVERYONE should be allowed to own a gun, or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get ahold of guns?
Click to expand...

A gun is not a magical talisman of destruction, it is a tool. A knive is much more dangerous than a gun, yet there is no knife control. A gallon of vaporized gasoline is more dangerous still. If a person can't be trusted with a "risky" tool, then they cannot be allowed in our society. In my opinion, they ought to be pushing up the pretty flowers...

Our "intrusionist" society has pretty much nullified Darwinism... More's the pity.

Wes
 
Nancy, we understand that your organization is against gun control.
I cant speak for the highroad organization, but as a someone who graduated high school only 4 years ago...

Could you tell us some reasons why, and if you have any experiences that you would like to share?
I am against civilian disarment because every creature on the planet has the ability to defend itself, there is absolutely no reason that humans should have that option taken away from them because of some gov't overseer.
Gun control is just that, control over people's lives.

How do you feel about the gun control laws that are in use at the moment?
In my city, gun control laws are incredibly stringent and totally against the constitution.

Do you think that the government is just wasting their time trying to control guns?
absolutely, gov't according to our constitution exist to protect the people's individual rights.
getting rid of guns doesnt sound like the govt trust its own people.

Every gov't historically that has controlled access to weaponry has also comitted genocide against its people. i.e nazi germany, soviet union, communist china, cambodia and the list goes on.

Do you think that EVERYONE should be allowed to own a gun, or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get ahold of guns?
Everyone should be allowed to own a gun who wants to. I understand the concern about mentally ill people or homicidal maniacs getting weapons. If those people are that dangerous to society then why were they let out of their institutions in the first place?!
 
WAG, you are WAY overthinking this.

First, if she's fishing for something to help her in the debate, who cares? You still want to tell her your side of the issue, right? You're not going to pass up the chance to educate her (when she has done you the almost unheard-of courtesy of asking to be educated) just so she'll have less chance to win a high-school debate, are you? If she wins the debate, but ends up on our side, what's that worth?

Second, don't kid yourself. She wants to know facts because she wants to know what she can say and what would make her look stupid. Of course she wants to know what the pro-gun side would say. In particular, she wants not to use some discredited statistic or argument that would open her up to an easy rebuttal from the other side. However, you do not care. If you don't believe me, see arrogant lecture number one immediately above.
 
Why do you do this to us????? Arrrgggghhhh! :D

Have the young student(s) do a yahoo or google search using the words "Gun Control Racism". If he or she is a thinking person they should be able to find hundreds of reasons to give them pause to wonder... because I think they'd have one hell of a time successfully debating down that ONE issue alone.

I just spent the last 30 minutes on that exact search (Yahoo) and here's a couple (or 5) links out of the first 10 pages...

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html
http://www.lizmichael.com/tahmasse.htm
http://www.themarcusgarveybbs.com/Feature/RoyInnis.htm
http://blog.danceslut.net/archives/000232.html
(Even found Jim March's name in the above link)
http://216.117.156.23/features/barrel_twist/1999/october/keep_em_down.shtml

Whereas you don't really need us to help you, it sure is fun to try and offer some educated guesses in this regards, because, as you know, we do it...

For the Children.

Help them and guide them WAGCEVP, they are our future. You have much to offer them. And even tho I've never met you person to person (only persona to persona), please know that I love you for your effort.

Help those students learn to think. What an opportunity.

Go Get 'em Nancy.
(edited additions... as I find them)
Remember the Merced California pitchfork murders where guns in the house were locked up... for the childrens safety?
http://www.richardpoe.com/blog_single.php?rowID=274
 
Ok Don, point acknowledged :)

going all out to educate - we'll see what happens with this one. This one is a learning experience for me too :)

y'know I had one student last year tell me that prior to the debate nearly all the class was pretty much anti, with the stuff I gave her she was able to counter all the anti arguments. After the debate the entire class was with her. So it might actually make a difference who "wins" the debate........ These kids are "teaching " their peers..... and sometiomes the teacher :)
 
It really comes down to one thing which was already touched upon and that is this:
Only the law abiding obey laws. If a criminal wants to break one law you cannot stop him/her by making new laws.

This might help also - I got into this debate with my mom:
mom: if you are sleeping here you don't need to keep that gun loaded
me: what are you gonna do if someone breaks in and wants to rape you and kill dad and I?
mom: call the police
me: why
mom: because they have..because they are trained
me: you were gonna say because they have guns weren't you?
mom: yeah you got me.
 
Cordex

The way I see it, if you can't trust someone enough to own a gun, you can't trust them to own a car, or a tire iron, or a can of gasoline, or a knife. In fact, I don't think if you can trust someone to be responsible with a gun, you can't trust them to live in our society at all.
Click to expand...

Perfect!
 
Could you tell us some reasons why, and if you have any experiences that you would like to share (i.e., One time someone broke into my home and I felt that I needed to protect my family so I shot them in the foot) then that would be great!

I am a sovereign human being, and have the right and obligation by virtue of my existence to protect myself and my family from human or non-human attackers.
(if someone breaks into my home, they will be shot somewhere other than their foot!)


How do you feel about the gun control laws that are in use at the moment?

All current gun control laws, including the NFA and any state or local restrictions on concealed or open carry, violate the Second Amendment of the Constitution.


Do you think that the government is just wasting their time trying to control guns?

Oh no, not at all! The government is expanding its power base by disarming its citizens. Disarmed citizens are more vulnerable to crime, thus destabilizing society and requiring even more government controls. Disarmed citizens enable the government to freely violate the basic rights guaranteed in the US Constitution.


Do you think that EVERYONE should be allowed to own a gun, or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get ahold of guns?

The death penalty or life imprisonment keeps homicidal maniacs from getting ahold (sic) of guns.
Every free citizen (those not in prison or probation as a result of a crime conviction) has a right to own the means to protect his/herself.
 
Do you think that EVERYONE should be allowed to own a gun, or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get ahold of guns?
Click to expand...

This question is based on a false presumption that the government or laws can prevent said maniacs from acquiring a gun, short of putting them away before they ever even commit a crime.
 
I too would be interested in how this one comes out.

In the mean time you might try to explain the gun control only affects people who already obey the law aspect like this: Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.
 
Is this enuff to make her think omigod, I'm gonna get my butt kicked :)

here's what I got so far... comments, suggestions?

======================================


First of all let me state that WAGC abhors ALL violence REGARDLESS of the TOOL used in it's commission! WAGC blames the INDIVIDUAL who commits the act of violence , NOT the inanimate object/TOOL used! WAGC knows that blaming a lifeless inanimat objectis no way to deter crime!


A) why Against Gun Control:
Lots of reason,
1) Gun Control Is UN-Constitutional or in other countries where there is no guarantee of government in fringement - UNHUMAN : Article Two of the Bill of Rights, to the United States Constitutin which states " A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The original intent and purpose of the Second Amendment was to preserve and guarantee, not grant the pre-existing right of individuals, to keep and bear arms. In other words Article Two of the B. O. R. to the US Constitution IS our basic fundamental HUMAN RIGHT to defend our lives, property AND liberty, UNINFRINGED!

Firearms are the ultimate guarantor of that right! Firearms are tools by which that means is met.

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/embar.html

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ll.htm

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/weissman_rkba.htm


(From Dick Howe) "Your right of self-defense, with the best weapons available, existed before there was any government, as noted and restated in the 2nd amendment."

"The right there specified is that of 'bearing arms for a lawful purpose.' This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it dependent in any manner on that
instrument for its existence." Cruikshank 92 US 542 (1876)

http://www.a-human-right.com/


a) Gun Control Laws INFRINGE on law abiding citizens RIGHTS. Gun Control Laws , as any other laws, are ONLY obeyed by law abiding citizens. Criminals , By definition do NOT obey laws regardless of how strict they are.
Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

2) Gun Control Laws are DEADLY!
International Gun Control Memorial
http://www.guncontrolnetwork.org/memorial.htm
http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/
http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/Articlesarchive.html

http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/ray/2001/jan/edrt011501.htm

the Merced California pitchfork murders where guns in the house were locked up... for the childrens safety?
http://www.richardpoe.com/blog_single.php?rowID=274

3) Gun Control Laws are Racist!
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html
http://www.reedsway.com/roots.htm
http://www.lizmichael.com/tahmasse.htm
http://www.themarcusgarveybbs.com/Feature/RoyInnis.htm
http://blog.danceslut.net/archives/000232.html
http://216.117.156.23/features/barr...p_em_down.shtml





B) Experiences? How about TRUE stories that show how Armed Citizens are used to SAVE Lives and How Gun Control Kills!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ArmedCitizensDeterCrime/

You'll notice when reading thru these stories that NOT all criminals use a firearm to commit the crime. You'll also notice that in NOT all cases was the Self Defense weapon fired. 90% of the time the Self defense weapon has only to be SHOWN in order to deter the crime and save a life.

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/OpEds/op071994.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107274,00.html

Personally I own a self defense weapon to keep from becoming a victim and/or a statistic or a slave/serf! I hope I never have to use it that way , but it's nice to know it's there JUST IN CASE!




C) Gun Laws should be repealed for the above mentioned reasons.

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/~llou/guns.html

D) Do you think that the government is just wasting their time trying to control guns?
YES, Considering that it's been proven time and again that Gun control laws don't do what the gun control lobby says they do......

The anti self efense lobby claims that their laws will make streets safer. But for whom? WEll! Since ONLY the law abiding citizens obey laws, gun control ONLY succeed in making the streets safer for criminals ( who do not always need a firearm to commit crimes)

1) http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel.shtml
Not-so Safe-Storage Laws : The only ones "safe" are the intruders.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lott/lott19.html

2)Registration and Licensing
First History is full of proof that licensing and registration leads to confiscation and even genocide.
(See: http://www.jpfo.org

The Let's Disarm America Crowd claim this will help police find firearms used in crimes. They like to compare this with automobile licensing and registration. My question to them is this: If an automobile is stolen and used in a crime, as many are, how will the car being registered and
the owner being licensed help the police find out who STOLE the
automobile andcommitted the crime? Now replace automobile with firearm. Same thing.

Canada has gun registration. Ask those in Canada how it "works".

3) Gun-free Zones:
Pearl Miss. High School shooter was stopped by the Assistant
Principle who was able to retrieve his self defense weapon from his car.
How many morelives could have been saved had he had his weapon close and more available?
Colorado, Columbine High School shooters had a free reign over the school.
All those innocent victims could do was hid under tables and pray that theywouldn't be next.

Which school would you rather attend?

4) Prohibition/ Bans - The alchol ban did it work, Illegal drugs - is it working?
Will gun bans stop criminals rfom commiting crimes? Think about it!


China has strict gun laws. Which one stopped THIS from happening.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/994028.asp?cp1=1

D) Do you think that EVERYONE should be allowed to own a gun,
All LAW ABIDING CITIZENS should be able to exercise their constitutional RIGHT!
There are all ready laws that keep firearms out of the wrong hands! They should be concentrating on enforcing CRIMINAL LAWS! Murder, Rape, theft, etc are all ready illegal regardless of the TOOL used to commit crimes.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/edmonds/edmonds153.html
http://www.largo.org/

E)or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get a hold of guns?

you mean like this one?????????????????
the Merced California pitchfork murders where guns in the house were locked up... for the childrens safety? Maybe we should ban pitchforks too?!?!?!?!?!? Which gun lawwould have stopped this homicidal maniac.....

http://www.richardpoe.com/blog_single.php?rowID=274


Homicidal maniacs shouldn't be out on the street. I believe in the death sentence for murders!




fianally, you might want to check out Students For the Second Amendment
http://www.sf2a.org/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: gun control questions


OK here goes...
Nancy, we understand that your organization is against gun control. A) Could you tell us some reasons why,
B) and if you have any experiences that you would like to share (i.e., One time someone broke into my home and I felt that I needed to protect my family so I shot them in the foot) then that would be great!
C) How do you feel about the gun control laws that are in use at the moment?
D) Do you think that the government is just wasting their time trying to control guns?

or do you think that certain precautions should be made to make sure that homicidal maniacs don't get a hold of guns?
These are all the questions that we have at the moment, but I'm sure once you send answers I will have more. If while anytime reading anything I send you, you notice that I have made a false statement or contradicted myself please let me know because I really want to know facts, and I don't want to sound stupid! Thank you for replying so quickly and answering our questions!

Mary Jo H.
 
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