Being prepared to use your firearm inside your house

[Cosmoline]

Would you recommend that I use the BAR with 4 shots of .338 Win Mag (more power per round) or the 1919 with the 250 round belt (more total power) as my house gun?

The 1919 is going to be hard to move in a hurry, so I'd suggest the BAR. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the more destructive the round and and more stable the platform, the more likely you are to both win the encounter and win it quickly. So you minimize the chance of both getting shot yourself and hitting some other person because you had to spray 15 rounds from your handgun.

Consider this hypothetical. You are facing an armed criminal kicking in your door. You have at your feet a 12 pound Napoleon armed and ready, pointed right at the center of the doorway. Your other option is a CCW handgun. Which do you use? The cannonball may well keep traveling, but so will your handgun bullets. And while one cannonball is going to resolve matters with extreme prejudice, even several handgun bullets may fail to do so. And, not to go Joe Biden here, there *is* something to the intimidation factor. I dare say most criminals, upon seeing the business end of a cannon or a double barreled elephant gun, are going to reconsider options fast. So ideally you'll never have to shoot. Whereas with a short gun? They may decide to roll those dice. A minor consideration, but it adds to the balance.

Kinetic energy remaining in a projectile that has passed through the target is of no use

True, but a bullet that stops half way is a bullet that stops doing damage to any tissues in front of it. So one that stops short of a man's heart won't stop the threat. This has happened before. Read the forensic breakdown from the Miami shootout, where a Mini-14 played havoc against handgun armed agents:

The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

There is also the consideration of shock. The same reasons for wanting a through-and-through wound on game apply to humans. The exit wound is typically larger and permits free flow of blood out of the body. This ideally crashes the circulatory system, deprives the brain of oxygen and causes shock quickly. Otherwise even a fatal wound may not stop the attack.

Meanwhile, even "low powered" rounds that are "safe" for home use will blast through interior walls like tissue paper. There is no safe way to shoot someone in your home. Every bullet you send out is inherently unsafe. So minimize your number of shots.

That is true--outside. Not in your house.

That may be so. I haven't fired a Mosin indoors. But it's a good point. And more support for the electronic muffs.

 

[Pilot]

CoRoMo,

Thanks for posting the link for the ear inserts. I ordered some and will keep them by the bed. I keep a 9MM bedside, and not one of my .45's due to noise, and muzzle blast. I shot a .357 Mag once, OUTSIDE, without hearing protection. Never again. (Not say .357 mag is anything like .45ACP)

 

[rondog]

Anybody know how loud an M1 carbine would be in a house? I'm assuming pretty loud, but I don't know. I keep a couple handy and ready, just in case.

Oh, and does anybody know how well an M1 carbine can be suppressed? I wouldn't do it to one of my USGI's, but I would to my Plainfield.

 

[bhk]

CoRoMo,

Thanks for posting the link for the ear inserts. I ordered some and will keep them by the bed. I keep a 9MM bedside, and not one of my .45's due to noise, and muzzle blast. I shot a .357 Mag once, OUTSIDE, without hearing protection. Never again. (Not say .357 mag is anything like .45ACP)

Maybe ought to reconsider that 9mm vs. .45 choice:

.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB, 26" barrel 150.25dB, 18 _" barrel 156.30dB,
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB, 22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB, 26" barrel 156.10dB, 18 _" barrel 161.50dB

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB

.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB

 

[wannabeagunsmith]

With the adrenaline going, I don't think you will even care or notice any pain caused by the noise.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Cosmoline: So you minimize the chance of both getting shot yourself and hitting some other person because you had to spray 15 rounds from your handgun.

Where did the idea of "spray[ing] 15 rounds" come from?

:...there *is* something to the intimidation factor. I dare say most criminals, upon seeing the business end of a cannon or a double barreled elephant gun, are going to reconsider options fast. So ideally you'll never have to shoot. Whereas with a short gun? They may decide to roll those dice. A minor consideration, but it adds to the balance.

I cannot disagree.

However, I will not bet everything on the assumption that a forcible entry would, for some reason, occur at such a time and from such a point of ingress and under such circumstances that I would necessarily have any chance at all of getting to a long gun timely. I believe that my chances are better with a firearm that is always at hand wherever I am in the house. That mitigates in favor of a handgun.

...a bullet that stops half way is a bullet that stops doing damage to any tissues in front of it. So one that stops short of a man's heart won't stop the threat.

The operative words were "penetrate adequately" and "make a sufficient wound channel".

There is also the consideration of shock. The same reasons for wanting a through-and-through wound on game apply to humans. The exit wound is typically larger and permits free flow of blood out of the body. This ideally crashes the circulatory system, deprives the brain of oxygen and causes shock quickly. Otherwise even a fatal wound may not stop the attack.

While everyone on the forum considers himself an expert, I rely on this. And for reasons aforementioned and following, I will not likely have a high powered weapon in hand at the moment of need.

Meanwhile, even "low powered" rounds that are "safe" for home use will blast through interior walls like tissue paper. There is no safe way to shoot someone in your home. Every bullet you send out is inherently unsafe.

Of course, but there is a matter of degree. A .30-'06 or .308 fired indoors is not only loud, it will likely penetrate into and perhaps through other houses in the neighborhood, unnecessarily and without benefit to the defender. A .357 Magnum with a hot load is worse than a .45 in that respect and in terms of noise damage.

I have concluded that a 5.56 MM carbine probably represents the best balance of controllability, wounding effectiveness, and limited structural penetration, but I do not intend to walk around the house with one all the time.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by wannabeagunsmith: With the adrenaline going, I don't think you will even care or notice any pain caused by the noise.

Those who have been reading the thread understand that that is not the issue at all.

What is important, in addition to permanent noise-induced hearing loss, is the defender's ability to hear a warning from a family member; to recognize the voice of said family member; to hear the tumultuous entry and/or charging footsteps of a second violent criminal attacker; to hear and understand the commands of an arriving first responder behind him or her.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bhk: Maybe ought to reconsider that 9mm vs. .45 choice.

You have me thinking.

 

[Pilot]

Maybe ought to reconsider that 9mm vs. .45 choice:

.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB, 26" barrel 150.25dB, 18 _" barrel 156.30dB,
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB, 22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB, 26" barrel 156.10dB, 18 _" barrel 161.50dB

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB

.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB

Interesting. Where did you get that info? As loads, bullet weights, pressure, etc all vary greatly within each caliber, I'd be curious to know what loads were used for the analysis. The .357 Mags, and .45 ACP I've shot certainly sounded louder than my 9MM, especially the .357 Mag. However, I did not put a db meter on them.

 

[SabbathWolf]

In handguns....I shoot 9mm, 45acp and 357mag.

Outdoors, I can shoot 9mm and 45acp with no hearing protection at all, and it doesn't hurt. Not that I recommend that, because I don't. In fact, it's stupid, and I need to stop doing that myself.

But even "Outside," my 357mag hurts my ears like hell for a while with no hearing protection; so that's something I "never" do anymore at all. And it's also why I don't use my 357mag as a house gun.

Now if I had to choose between going deaf or being dead....
Then I'd shoot whatever gun I had in my hand first, if that's what it took, to stop a home invader. Indoors or Out would be irrelevant, and so would be worrying about hearing protection in a situation like that.....

 

[clutch]

I have 35 db of damage in my right ear from one shot of .380 auto. It was a very cold day, my soft plug fell out and I was shooting a hole in a new burn barrel for drainage.

That single shot drove me to my knees and I've heard ringing in that year for a lot of years. It seems to have abated a bit but the audiogram I take yearly shows a notch in my hearing.

Ears don't get tough, the hairs break off, you lose hearing.

My worst nightmare is a carjack where I touch off my .38spl +p inside my little car. I'm pretty sure I won't have much hearing left after that.

I've actually thought of shooting one handed in the house with my left arm wrapped over my head to protect both ears if I comes to that.

In the field, I wear my Peletor Tac Pro's, I hear better with them on, and I protect my remaining hearing if I shoot at game.

I should get some noise canceling muffs for bedside. It would amplify my diminished hearing and make my hearing sense sharper in a defense situation.

 

[SabbathWolf]

I have 35 db of damage in my right ear from one shot of .380 auto. It was a very cold day, my soft plug fell out and I was shooting a hole in a new burn barrel for drainage.

That single shot drove me to my knees and I've heard ringing in that year for a lot of years. It seems to have abated a bit but the audiogram I take yearly shows a notch in my hearing.

Ears don't get tough, the hairs break off, you lose hearing.

My worst nightmare is a carjack where I touch off my .38spl +p inside my little car. I'm pretty sure I won't have much hearing left after that.

I've actually thought of shooting one handed in the house with my left arm wrapped over my head to protect both ears if I comes to that.

In the field, I wear my Peletor Tac Pro's, I hear better with them on, and I protect my remaining hearing if I shoot at game.

I should get some noise canceling muffs for bedside. It would amplify my diminished hearing.

Not to change the subject, but how do you like those Tac Pro's? I looked at them more than once.

 

[bhk]

Interesting. Where did you get that info? As loads, bullet weights, pressure, etc all vary greatly within each caliber, I'd be curious to know what loads were used for the analysis. The .357 Mags, and .45 ACP I've shot certainly sounded louder than my 9MM, especially the .357 Mag. However, I did not put a db meter on them.

Not sure of the source. It has been floating around the internet for a number of years. As you know, a 3 decibel increase is a doubling of loudness!

You are certainly correct that barrel length, bullet weight, etc. will effect the decibel level within a given caliber. The chart is, then, just for general reference. You will note the difference in shotgun barrel lengths is noted and noticable! Some are surprised that the .45 auto is quieter than some other handguns. This is probably because is a relatively low pressure round - much lower than the 9mm and .357.

 

[Pilot]

^^^^^ Thanks. It certainly does make me re-think things. It would be nice to see a study done with specific loads.

 

[45_auto]

It may seem counter-intuitive, but the more destructive the round and and more stable the platform, the more likely you are to both win the encounter and win it quickly.

Wow, I didn't know that. I've always wondered why all the military and cop entry teams don't use Barrett M82 50 cal's. They all seem stuck on those puny little 9mm MP5's and .223 M16's. Have you ever considered getting a job as a consultant?

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Many folks also keep electronic ear muffs handy - can amplify sounds to hear the BG, but protects your ears from the loud bang

Yup, like me. I've already put them on a couple times and gone exploring for strange noises, but then I also have cats. E-muffs actually give me better hearing than what I have normally. If it's a sure thing, though, like my front door being smashed in, well then I doubt I'll be worrying about putting those on.

 

[shinyroks]

Maybe ought to reconsider that 9mm vs. .45 choice:

.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB, 26" barrel 150.25dB, 18 _" barrel 156.30dB,
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB, 22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB, 26" barrel 156.10dB, 18 _" barrel 161.50dB

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB

.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB

Remember dB are a logarithmic method to describe intensity, so the 2 decibel difference at around 150 dB may actually be closer to 1.25-1.5 the intensity (I didn't do the math, but it is a lot more than the dBs make you think). dBs lie to some extent, they just make the math easier. That is why 25dB earpro makes such a big difference over 22 dB earpro.

 

[benEzra]

Thats my point,taking a few shots without hearing protection will help prepare for this type of situation.

Exposing yourself to ear-damaging impulse noise (e.g., a few shots of .357 indoors) does two things; it permanently reduces your ability to hear and locate an intruder in your house, and it very effectively trains you to flinch. I'm not sure how much training benefit there'd be, but the downsides are certainly real.

Still, it's certainly a good idea to pick a gun/load that doesn't waste energy producing unnecessary flash/blast if it's intended for indoor HD; a ported .357 snubbie or a braked 14.5" .223 may be a neat range toy that can certainly serve a defensive role if it has to, but both of those waste energy flash-blinding and concussing you. For HD, a full-length, non-ported .357 with a tight cylinder gap and intelligent load choice is arguably better than a ported .357 snubbie, a 16" AR with a Vortex is probably better than a 14.5" with a brake, and a non-compensated semiauto pistol is probably better than a ported or compensated one or one with a super-short barrel.

I think practicing shooting in dim lighting if you can is probably a good thing, but I wouldn't subject myself to hearing damage just for the experience, I think. Once that part of your hearing is gone, it's gone.

 

[BRE346]

It's going to be LOUD, but you may not hear it in the excitement of having (choosing) to fire. Your ears will ring for a good while. Tell the cops you'll talk to them when you can hear again.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by BRE346: It's going to be LOUD, but you may not hear it in the excitement of having (choosing) to fire.

What does that have to do with anything?

Your ears will ring for a good while.

Do not forget permanent noise-induced hearing loss.

Tell the cops you'll talk to them when you can hear again.

That would be if you can hear again. One aspect of that question might involve whether your impaired hearing prevented you from detecting the presence of other intruders or prevented you from complying with the commands of first responders who believed you, the man with the gun, to be a violent criminal actor.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I agree with not worrying about hearing loss but my concern would be becoming severely disoriented from the muzzle blast/flash and not being able to get an accurate follow up shot if needed.

Honestly man, I'm guessing that your adrenalin is going to cancel those things out.

That being said, I prefer .45 acp for HD. Quieter rounds, and since I use full size pistols for HD (Fnp-45 on the nightstand and 1911 in the livingroom), muzzle flash will be reduced since there is more time for powder to burn. Also, you could look into low flash ammo like Hornady CD or C Duty, Speer short bbl stuff.....

I think having muffs next to the bed is an excellent idea.

 

[X-Rap]

Muffs may well enhance sound but they greatly impede your directional senses since the sound is projected from the same direction inside the muffs. I'll take my chances on what will hopefully be a rare occurrence of a defensive shooting. I try to wear ear pro while hunting but that rarely happens either.

 

[bhk]

Muffs may well enhance sound but they greatly impede your directional senses since the sound is projected from the same direction inside the muffs. I'll take my chances on what will hopefully be a rare occurrence of a defensive shooting. I try to wear ear pro while hunting but that rarely happens either.

Now days, most good electronic muffs are stereo and have a microphone on each side sending the sound to that side only. I have no problems with picking up the direction of incoming sounds when wearing mine.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Muffs may well enhance sound but they greatly impede your directional senses since the sound is projected from the same direction inside the muffs.

Wrong. I have a very inexpensive pair and they are perfectly directional. As I said, I've used them already, and know exactly what direction to look as I hear a sound.

 

[WinThePennant]

I really don't get why people say things like, "In a life or death situation, your hearing will be the least of your worries."

Aren't we creatures with large brains who are able to plan in advance? Why have a firearm as your bedside gun if you know it's going to cause deafness after one blast? Most people, even shooters, have never heard just how damn loud a gun is when fired in a very small room. I have -- ONCE. It really is stunning just how loud a gunshot is when fired in a small room.

We all know that a blast from a .357 Sig is going to cause major problems with your hearing, and adrenaline will do nothing to improve your hearing.

I think a .45 ACP makes the most sense. A pistol caliber carbine -- Better. A suppressed firearm -- BEST.