Beretta 92F Question

[kahr404life]

I have an older Beretta 92F (pre F/S) and I read somewhere that after shooting many rounds (10000+) it would be a good idea to change out the locking block. Does anyone have correct info about if this is needed or not. Mine shoots just fine but for safetys sake I would like to know. My Beretta was a police trade-in (some department in yankee land) that had very little wear inside (lots of holster wear). I've shot about 3500 rounds out of it myself but who knows the round count before I got it. Thanks for any info.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I personally have a very, very low opinion of the Beretta locking block from seeing a whole lot of military issue M9s fail under fairly heavy (but not insanely heavy) use. That said, civilian shooters and LE types seem to have more luck with the design. I think this may be because the military pistols are fed a steady diet of +P-ish military ball ammo, but there may be other reasons as well.

I would say your pistol is probably fine. I suppose if you are concerned about it and the weapon is used for daily carry or some other potential self-defense context, you could go ahead and switch out the locking block (may as well put in new springs as well) just to be on the safe side. Same thing if you're training with it intensively, shooting competitively with it, etc., but for the average civilian shooter, mostly putting standard pressure ammo through the gun and taking decent care of it (to include new springs from time to time) my guess would be your grandkids will still be shooting the thing with the same locking block without a problem.

 

[USMC Tanker]

Someone will call me on this if I am wrong, but this is my understanding:

The Beretta 92F's that entered military testing trials had a number of slide failures, including the infamous "You're not a SEAL until you've eaten Italian steel" incident.

The design was immediately improved, all further productions had safety lugs which would prevent the slide from leaving the frame in the event of locking block failure.

You've put a high round count through her, and like you said, G*d knows how many rounds the PD put through it.

To be on the safe side, and for preventative maintenance, I'd go ahead and change out the locking block and springs. Shouldn't be too expensive and would be better than waiting for a real problem to arise.


That being said, I love the M9. Great pistol. I hate NATO ball, but my M9 served me well in Iraq...I just had to buy one for my home!

 

[Redhat]

I would take it to a smith and let him check it over, especially since it's used.

You can look for some signs yourself:

Recoil Spring - should not be shorter than the barrel or have flat spots.

Slide - At thinnest point where locking block lugs travel, chech inside and out for hairline cracks (it can actually look like a scratch)

Locking Block lugs - Inspect for cracks.

If it were me, I would do as already suggested and replace the recoil spring and locking block. Can't hurt and you know they are good.

Good Luck!

 

[Stachie]

Play it safe: replace the locking block and springs.

 

[jkomp316]

Its funny the kind of disrespect people give to such a respectable weapon... Beretta's are durable, despite what people may ASSume. If your locking block isnt cracked, leave it alone... The STORY about the slide seperations....the soldiers were shooting overpowered lead reloads. There were something like 7 seperations, out of how many 100's of thousands of guns produced in that 4yr time period. Think about how many Beretta 92s that are in circulation, the only other pistol with that kind of track record is the 1911, and that is only a STYLE of pistol, made by many many companies... What other pistol/manufacture has been put to that test? You people need to respect the 92, 99% of the supposed problems with them are USER related. If your service M9 was junk, its probably because the grunt/grunts before you didn't take care of it. Blame the people reissuing them to you, not the company who delivered an excellent gun.

 

[tank mechanic]

I totally agree with jkomp316. The M9 is issued to a lot of people who are not handgunners in nature and they do not have the desire to use it to its full potential. I love my personally owned Beretta 92 and it is like my visa card, I never leave home without it. i have put thousands of rounds through it and it always goes bang when I pull the trigger. I can put many rounds downrange and on target very quickly. It is a very dependable pistol and I expect to get a long service life out of it.

 

[Redhat]

jkomp316 and Tank Mechanic,

Who "disrespected" the M9?

I'm just telling the guy, if he doesn't know how the gun has been treated previously or the round count, he should have it checked over. Replacing the locking block and recoil spring are normal ops as are inspecting the gun.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I'm thinking it may have been me saying I don't care for the M9 because I've seen a whole lot of locking blocks go south.

I should probably elaborate that I never saw an M9 locking block failure when I was in conventional units. Currently being assigned (as a support guy, no claim to be any sort of super commando) to a Special Forces unit, I see them break a lot (pretty much on a daily basis on the flat range). I don't buy the argument that team guys are mistreating their weapons, but I do think the pistols just don't hold up to the kind of round counts team guys run through them during combat marksmanship training. Round counts in one day on the flat range during training exceed what was put through the M9 I was issued back in the day as a Bradley crew member over the course of an entire year. The pistols' locking blocks just don't hold up under that kind of use, for whatever reason(s), and fail at a pretty alarming rate (about 1 locking block per 50 shooters per day is a reasonable estimate) in my experience.

Mileage may vary for other shooters/users, and if so, allow me to stress I'm not trying to start a flame war on the topic, just reporting what I've personally observed with my own eyes over the last few years. I will also note that besides the locking block, I can't think of any other failure I've seen with an M9 that could not be attributed to some sort of operator error (i.e. someone who doesn't know what they're doing detail stripping the pistol for cleaning and botching reassembly). Reliability, unless the locking block is involved, is exceedingly good, as well.

I suspect that the difference in durability I've observed between the conventional side of the house and SOF side of things probably explains why the former dropped its desire to adopt a new pistol while USASOC is still pursuing a replacement even after the JCP cancellation. As I noted in my first post, I don't think a civilian shooter will have any sort of problems with the locking block unless they're doing something unusual like running very hot handloads in quantity for competitive shooting or the like.

 

[Black Knight]

Being an armorer and carrying the Beretta on duty if you are concerned about it take to a gunsmith and have it checked. If it needs a new one changing the recoil spring at the same time would be a great idea. They are cheap. Another thing I would do is change the hammer pin for the new large head hammer pin and a new left side grip or a new set of grips. With the new large head hammer pin the old grip won't fit. After these modifications it should last another 10,000 rounds or moreas long as the barrel is in good shape. As far as the cracked or broken slides go, according to Beretta the guys that this occured with were useing extremely hot handloads.

 

[tank mechanic]

Redhat, I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone specifically. It just seems that the prevailing attitude among a lot of the soldiers who carry them is that they think they are junk, so they treat them poorly and say "see i told you they don't work'' when ever they have a problem.

 

[Dodger02WS6]

Change the block, then shoot the hell out of it

Sufice to say, the whole SLIDE failure incident has been beat to death with internet hersay and 5th hand knowledge being passed down for years... The truth to the matter was...

3 slides failed durning testing, more controled tests were performed and 7 more slides failed. Reason for failure, +p+ ammo and poor french metal used to contsruct the slides. Result, 20+ years of excellent service, and 20+ years of gunstore commandos using the incident to sell you a different gun w/ better mark up for them.

As for your locking block, change it, the latest design has a service life of 30,000 rounds. And like others have suggested, get a new spring kit and change them out too, it's cheap and you'll be ready for many 1000's of rounds down range and many many happy range trips

 

[alucard0822]

I personally love my 92 and have only changed recoil springs about every 5k rounds, the 2nd gen locking block is rated to 15k rounds the new is rated to 30k rounds and seems a little beefier as dodger has said. I have always brought any used gun i bought (before i got into it myself) to my local gunsmith for a checkout, if you are unfarmiliar with your gun this can be the best $20-$40 you can spend. I have had very good luck with one locally and they can show you how to dissasemble the pistol for cleaning and any tips or tricks needed (ruger mark II reciever pin comes to mind) and being that most gunsmiths are shooting enthusiasts themselves they are happy to help out new shooters.

 

[P-Cat]

You can get the locking block and just about any part you need from Dave Olhasso. http://www.olhasso.com/beretta/index.htm

When I purchase a used pistol, I automatically replace all of the springs. They are relatively inexpensive.

You might also want to try a "D" style hammer spring in your FS model. It will make the trigger pull slightly lighter and crisper. In my opinion, it is the cheapest improvement you can make to a 92.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[chipp]

Very Interesting posts. I bought a Baretta around the end of 01.
Didn't hear about any of this untill after I bought it. My cousin is a seal and of course he roasted it. To be honest I love the gun. My question is if you change the block is it the same block again that was originally in it?
I just have it for home defense as I ccw a revolver. doubt I'll put a thousand rounds through it but I'm curious is there a beefed up block or is it the same?

 

[Dodger02WS6]

It's not the same block, the locking block design has changed 4 times since the original design was manufactured. The new 4th gen locking block is rated at 30k rounds MTBF and usually lasts far longer. WWIW, there are several members over on the Berettaforum with 30,000 + rounds and one with 100,000 rounds fired with no breakages, just regular cleaning and maintenance.

All firearms will eventually wear out or break with use, proper maintenance goes a long way to helping your firearm last the longest it can.

 

[aig1]

This is what Ernest Landgon suggests for Beretta maintenance, which chimes in whit a lot of what has already been said:

Before it breaks - Winning Edge
American Handgunner, Jan-Feb, 2004 by Dave Anderson

No one knows more about shooting, modifying and maintaining the Beretta 92 than Ernest Langdon. Langdon was chief instructor at Marine scout-sniper school and is a Marine combat veteran. After resigning from the Marine Corps he was employed with Beretta USA for a time. Currently his business, LTT (Langdon Tactical Technology) offers custom work and accessories for Beretta pistols, as well as shooting classes.

A highlight in a stellar competitive career came in 2000 at the IDPA national championships. Using his Beretta, Langdon won not only the Stock Service Pistol division but the overall title, defeating other world class shooters equipped with custom 1911's. Langdon's experience indicates a stock Beretta 92 will run well over 20,000 rounds with no parts replacement. With equipment that has to work, a scheduled maintenance program is money well spent. Airplane mechanics throw away perfectly good parts and replace them with new ones at regular intervals so the plane is always airworthy. Langdon's maintenance program is cheap insurance against breakdowns in competition.

"I put in a spring pack (LTT package: recoil spring, trigger spring, trigger bar spring, cost $5) every 5,000 rounds. This keeps the trigger spring from ever breaking, I tear down the top end every 10,000 rounds, clean out all the carbon and unburned powder and install a new firing pin, firing pin spring and striker. Cost for these parts is $11. At 20,000 rounds I rebuild the top end. I replace all the slide parts subject to wear; extractor, springs, firing pin and such. Cost for parts is $40. I'll also fit a new locking block ($70) at this point."

Which makes me ponder if the above mentioned block failures experienced by the SEALS are not due to too much firing without proper maintenance. If one fires few thousand rounds a week, one will reach the 20 000 mark very, very quickly. Such excessive use without top-notch maintenance will lead to some unwanted results. I think this is true for every handgun out there.

Out of interest, and slightly off topic, do the SEALS approve or find some other handgun more reliable than the Beretta?

Alexi

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

kahr404life

I to have a older Beretta F model, it has around 8,000 to 10,000 rds through it and never one problem. My dad bought it for me in 1984 or 1985, from Bass Pro and it has been a great gun. While any gun can have problems it has been my personal experiance that the Beretta 92F's are great guns.

 

[bobhaverford]

The 92FS is a terrific gun. Regarding the locking block:

The Locking Block

Much ado about nothing? The Army's testing shows that the locking block on an M9 will function for 17,000 to 22,000 rounds of NATO-specification (+p or +p+) ammunition before needing replacement. Ted Nugent fired 100,000 rounds through his personal Beretta 92, replacing the locking block once. Various SWAT teams have fired over 65,000 rounds through each of their Berettas without needing more than one locking block replacement. There are actually two types of locking blocks, an older straight-sided version and a newer, redesigned version with a radius relief cut made along the sides for longer life. You can see pictures of both on the Beretta-L locking block page.

The locking block, for those unfamiliar with the terminology, is the little pyramid of steel which is connected to your barrel (and which sometimes becomes loose enough to remove; that is a normal function of wear and does not impede function of the gun in any way). When a gun fires, the barrel's natural tendency is to fly forward (like a rocket, with the bullet acting like a jet propulsion unit). So part of a gun's design must include a method for keeping the barrel "locked" in place during the firing sequence. Many modern handguns use a locking block which is literally part of the barrel, called a "barrel block". If you look at a SIG or Glock barrel, for example, you will see that the chamber area is actually a square or rectangle of metal. This "block" mates up precisely with the ejection port to keep the gun locked.

The downside of this design is that the locking area of any gun has to survive tremendous force every time the gun is fired; therefore, it is an area of great wear. When that wear occurs on the slide and barrel, eventually the slide and barrel have to be replaced. If you look at the barrel and ejection port of a much-fired "barrel block" gun, you will see peening of the barrel and slide.

With a Beretta, the removable locking block performs this locking function. So while the part may wear more quickly than a "barrel block" design, the only thing you need to replace is a $50 locking block rather than a $150 barrel and $200 slide.

However, if the locking block does break and the gun continues to be used, it can potentially lead to a broken slide. If the locking block or slide is going to break, it will happen on the right side first, so you should inspect this area whenever there is a possibility of trouble. A broken locking block will still be "safe" to use for approximately 700 rounds, giving the user plenty of time to replace the part.​

 

[Redhat]

I don't know where you got that broken locking block info, but I have seen a broken locking block lock up the slide, causing the gun to be inop, on more than one occasion.

 

[zachsm]

people exaggerate the locking block deal. but id change the spring and the block if it was me, and get the newer designed one.

ive put about 120K through a friends beretta (i use it alot more than he does) and he put an additional 20k. the first hting he had to replace this whole time was the spring, and everything else is original