shep854
Member
And this is the most combat-experienced army in the world...
Beretta M9 Failures
- Thread starter Rocketmedic
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Rocketmedic
Member
Unit leadership could care less about pistols. There's a lot of more 'important' things on their overpaid minds. Like the brigade ball seating chart.
Nushif
Member
... or the amount of MREs they have to feed you. Or the fuel budget. Or the place you sleep at. Or the upcoming plans for deploying again. Or the vehicle condition. Also the commo systems in place for emergencies. Or even the ammunition budget for the crew served weapons and rifles.
I do imagine that they could care a lot less about pistols. Probably true.
I do imagine that they could care a lot less about pistols. Probably true.
SharpsDressedMan
member
And don't forget, the soldiers are expendable, too. Lest we forget how high THEY are on the list. 
Rubber_Duck
Member
Rocketmedic, don't feel bad, I despise the M9 and hate using it. I don't like how it feels and the trigger sucks but my biggest gripe is the mags they issue us feel really cheap, like they are disposable. They pretty much are.
I'm going to Afghanistan soon and I'm taking one of those M9 abortions with me. But I'm also taking an M4 with an Aimpoint and I have complete confidence in the M4 and my ability to use and maintain it. If it fails me I will use a sharp stick as a backup. The M9 sucks.
I'm going to Afghanistan soon and I'm taking one of those M9 abortions with me. But I'm also taking an M4 with an Aimpoint and I have complete confidence in the M4 and my ability to use and maintain it. If it fails me I will use a sharp stick as a backup. The M9 sucks.
REAPER4206969
Member
The Beretta is one of the most widely used military pistols in the world for a reason. You need to learn to appreciate it.
mljdeckard
Member
They are all correct about the leadership's attitudes about maintenence. They draw weapons for the unit, and they just hope that they mostly work. The depot that issues them knows they are going to war, so they will issue the ones that are already hammered. They don't want to ding up the new ones. The army is ambivalent in general about sidearms. No war has ever had its outcome decided by the choice or presence or absence of sidearms.
The one I was issued is terrible. The hammer fails to drop when the slide falls with the weapon on safe, the safety lever is stiff, it's hard to move in either direction, and it doesn't always drop the hammer when I safe it. It requires constant checking, cleaning, and lubricating to make sure that it will work correctly. I showed it to the supply sergeant/armorer, who is a gun guy as well, and he told me he wanted me to keep it, because I am the guy who knows how to keep it running. If he traded it to someone else, they might not be as dedicated and astute as I am. He has a mix of new M-11s, (Sig 229s,) and he issues them to the people who DON'T know how to keep a gun running.
And Reaper, I'd like to know exactly what event is going to make me change my mind about it. I've been dealing with it since 1992.
The one I was issued is terrible. The hammer fails to drop when the slide falls with the weapon on safe, the safety lever is stiff, it's hard to move in either direction, and it doesn't always drop the hammer when I safe it. It requires constant checking, cleaning, and lubricating to make sure that it will work correctly. I showed it to the supply sergeant/armorer, who is a gun guy as well, and he told me he wanted me to keep it, because I am the guy who knows how to keep it running. If he traded it to someone else, they might not be as dedicated and astute as I am. He has a mix of new M-11s, (Sig 229s,) and he issues them to the people who DON'T know how to keep a gun running.
And Reaper, I'd like to know exactly what event is going to make me change my mind about it. I've been dealing with it since 1992.
SharpsDressedMan
member
Has anyone in the military ever written a faulty firearm up? I mean, go on record that the firearm is deficient, unsafe, malfuctioning, etc. If you keep reporting the weapon as deficient (assuming you can actually demonstrate such), then you start the chain of events that the upper echelon fears the most: a paper trail that shows they are not doing their job. Report it, report it again, and again, and keep copies of what you report, and then if the gun gets someone hurt, a ranking person takes a hit for it. The officers know this, and although they will most likely think of you as trouble maker, but they will still be forced to DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE WEAPON, lest it fail and the incident come back to haunt them.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Sharps, my experience is that if you want a problem to go away, ask a sailor to document it. You'll never hear about it again
mljdeckard
Member
Repeated 2404s. In my case, my officers know full well I know how to keep it running. they also know that the guns aren't bad enough to justify switching them out. The army runs on a yes or no system. Any piece of equipment either works or it doesn't. "Works with an asterisk" means, "Works".
SharpsDressedMan
member
Suggest that the officer trade you HIS M9 for yours, and then show him how to keep his running. He should have no problem with that, leading by example and all. And if he won't, tell him he is full of ShXX to his face. He should have no problem with that, either. I'd allow myself to be busted for that one. - (*US Army 1971-1977).
Skylerbone
Member
I'll stand corrected in my assesment and go with damaged pistol. I still don't see the model as the problem as any pistol can be made to fail with the proper abuse. It's a shame that the soldier who previously had charge of it did not see fit to take care of it.
Stay safe and keep your rifle clean.
Stay safe and keep your rifle clean.
mljdeckard
Member
"Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties. They will not have to accomplish mine."
I actually like my CO, and I will be with him longer than this action. It's my job to fill in the details he misses and cover his butt.
I actually like my CO, and I will be with him longer than this action. It's my job to fill in the details he misses and cover his butt.
SharpsDressedMan
member
And it would be his job to see that his men have the proper (properly working) equipment. Who is falling down on the job? You might like the guy, but business is business. Negligently sending someone out with a defective weapon is wrong on several different levels. As you have stated, you might be able to prop your M9 up, right up until the time it decides to get goofy, and that might be the wrong time to have to fiddle with it. Your call, of course, but it seems like playing with fire to do anything but the right thing, which is to see that it gets fixed. "Officers of my unit (might, sometimes) will have maximum time to accomplish their (and sometimes MY) duties. They (might, will, sometimes, and sometimes not) need to accomplish mine." Orders and good intentions rarely go the way someone wants them to when things heat up.
mljdeckard
Member
What is it he could do about it? They won't give him different guns. His sidearm came out of the same crappy batch as mine.
IdahoLT1
Member
Rubber Duck said:
The mags suck because some of the checkmates are still in circulation. If you cant, have a family member go to cheaperthandirt.com and buy some mecgar 18rd mags. They were $19.99 last I checked.
And to fix that trigger, if you can, buy this $2 D mainspring and it will lighten the DA trigger by 2lbs and SA trigger by about 1.5lbs
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27930/Product/HAMMER_SPRING_D_VERSION
IdahoLT1
Member
Heres the video to remove the mainspring
http://beretta92fs.com/video.php?id=211
and the one to put it back together
http://beretta92fs.com/video.php?id=304
It literally takes 5 minutes.
http://beretta92fs.com/video.php?id=211
and the one to put it back together
http://beretta92fs.com/video.php?id=304
It literally takes 5 minutes.
otomik
Member
I think there's something going on. rather than looking at hi-points you can get a commercially available M9 for a decent price these days. you'll be relying on it and have little choice in the matter. so it would be prudent to know how to use it and make it work. I recommend the M9 and not the turkish clone or other variations because later versions have a three dot system and not the military two dot.
george d dennis
Member
beretta
why isnt the armorer fixing the pistol? no parts? i was a armorer for
2yrs, if things didnt work , or no parts. they were taken off line.
someones not doing there job.
why isnt the armorer fixing the pistol? no parts? i was a armorer for
2yrs, if things didnt work , or no parts. they were taken off line.
someones not doing there job.
PRM
Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2008
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Can't say as I have experienced that many problems with the M9 platform. I carried one in 2009-2010 in Afghanistan and mine functioned flawless. I also been around the Berettas in my civilian career as an LEO for well into a second decade in both 9mm and .40. I've found the Beretta to be very dependable. I personally like a gun with an external hammer ~ others don't and it is a given, at least in our area that the Glocks have the lions share of usage by departments.
Far as the M9. If/when, I buy another semi-auto it will most likely be a Beretta 92.
Far as the M9. If/when, I buy another semi-auto it will most likely be a Beretta 92.
Rocketmedic
Member
Yeah...as to buying a Beretta, no. I already dislike the platform, why would I buy one with my own money when I could get an XD (on layaway now, XD40 Tactical) or anything else? I've done my combat time and used an M4 in anger, and I trust that system. Not so much the M9 that either works or doesn't. If my life ever depends on a weapon, I want it to be something I'm comfortable with that will work in the worst possible conditions- not something that is over/under-lubed, dusty, or just doesn't work.
Officers have a lot on their minds, but being busy isn't an excuse to not do their jobs. That being said, I don't blame them- they don't go out and qualify with every weapon, and rely on the soldiers to be proactive in identifying problems. I told the company armorer about it, hopefully it will be fixed. Prior experience suggests otherwise. There's a lot of more important things for the repair budget than my issue M9.
The design is reliable, the execution is not. A service pistol should run regardless of lube, ammo, or anything else. The Beretta is "finicky". Good pistol, but not one I'd trust my life to.
My cheap, often_abused Hi Point, on the other hand, has 750 rounds through it with one ammunition-related FTE (deformed cartridge lip coming out of the box). No other malfunctions. At all. And a better trigger. Beretta should learn a few things about quality handguns.
Officers have a lot on their minds, but being busy isn't an excuse to not do their jobs. That being said, I don't blame them- they don't go out and qualify with every weapon, and rely on the soldiers to be proactive in identifying problems. I told the company armorer about it, hopefully it will be fixed. Prior experience suggests otherwise. There's a lot of more important things for the repair budget than my issue M9.
The design is reliable, the execution is not. A service pistol should run regardless of lube, ammo, or anything else. The Beretta is "finicky". Good pistol, but not one I'd trust my life to.
My cheap, often_abused Hi Point, on the other hand, has 750 rounds through it with one ammunition-related FTE (deformed cartridge lip coming out of the box). No other malfunctions. At all. And a better trigger. Beretta should learn a few things about quality handguns.
rbernie
Contributing Member
This seems to be a key admission, since it hardly seems intellectually rigorous to dismiss an entire platform based upon a single observation.
Actually, real world experience for the last several decades and millions of rounds sent downrange proves otherwise. About the only known issues with the M9 have revolved around the magazine; the US Army spec'ed a parkerized finish that caused all sorts of problems when dusty and subsequently moved to a dry-film (PVD) coating to resolve the issue.
The M9 does not have a systemic issue with quality or reliability. Yes, your issued guns or the magazines used are at fault and need to be fixed. It has nothing to do with the design or construction of the M9/M9A1.
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