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Berger VLD 168 g hunting- OAL issue- your experience

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shekarchi

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Aug 28, 2013
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76
Location
Lexington KY
Just got a box of 168 grain Berger VLD hunting bullets to load for my .300 WSM. I have used the Hornady OAL gage to measure these bullets and to find where I should seat in relation to the bore's lands. I loaded a few at 0.040 and 0.50 off the lands. The OAL comes to much longer than will fit in the magazine and none will eject if I just single load and work the bolt to eject [unfired cartridge is too long to be ejected] and I have to uninstall the bolt to retrieve the unfired cartridge.
These were loaded with a charge I found on LOADDATA.com... [published load was 65 grains of W760- I used 63 grains]... I checked and looks like the longest I can go in order to be within SAAMI specs will be like a football field away from the lands and bullets seated way deeper than I have heard VLD's should be.
my question is should I give up on using these since I cannot get anywhere near the lands?
If I keep the same charge and go deeper I will most likely get into an overpressure situation....
any suggestions?
HELP!!!
 
shekarchi
I've loaded a few of the 168 grain Berger VLD's in 7.5 Swiss with excellent results. I've played around with loading them in 30-06 and .308 and gave up on the idea pretty quickly since I couldn't get an accurate load that would fit in the magazine.

This is a quote from Midway's website:
Berger recommends that the bullets be seated to touch the rifling for best accuracy. Note, however, that the resulting cartridge overall length may be too long for some magazines.

You might be able to come up with a way to beat this problem, but my recommendation would be to try a bullet with a shorter ogive.
 
shekarchi
I've loaded a few of the 168 grain Berger VLD's in 7.5 Swiss with excellent results. I've played around with loading them in 30-06 and .308 and gave up on the idea pretty quickly since I couldn't get an accurate load that would fit in the magazine.

This is a quote from Midway's website:


You might be able to come up with a way to beat this problem, but my recommendation would be to try a bullet with a shorter ogive.
thanks for the reply
I have not fired any of the Berger VLD's through my rifle yet- Guess I will try loading to SAAMI recommended OAL and see how they do with the different powders I have on hand... would hate to waste the bullets since I only have one 300 cal. rifle ...
 
I wouldn't be too concerned about pressure problems if seating them deeper is the only option. High powered rifle cartridges actually experience higher pressures when seated closer to the lands, much different story with handgun cartridges. I would seat them as deep as necessary and shoot em, if it were me.

As for those Berger's, I like the bullet characteristics (BC), but I haven't found a magazine that will accommodate the short jump to the lands I prefer. But on the flip side, I have friends that tell me you don't have to seat them up close and personal to the lands to get superior accuracy with them, probably due to the long profile I assume.

GS
 
Yeah and Berger recommends that you seat them right on the lands or very close. I have them in a .270 WSM and get great accuracy but they do seat on the lands.

They are also long since they are so streamlined. So your twist rate may be an issue with the 168's.
 
Exactly Gamestalker- if I seat close to the lands the OAL ends up way too long to cycle through the magazine...
I will be shooting some this weekend and will see how they group when seated at the Berger manual recommended OAL [which happens to be SAAMI max] ...and report the results.
 
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

From Berger Bullentin- http://www.bergerbullets.com/berger-bulletin/
Background

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith
Also read Effects of Cartridge Over All Length (COAL) and Cartridge Base To Ogive (CBTO) Part 1 & 2 http://www.bergerbullets.com/berger-bulletin/
 
Wow, excellent information 243winxb! I that report from Berger answers a lot of questions for all of us regarding VLD's, including the OP.

GS
 
Berger bullet failure test

The .257 bore diameter barrel produced the first bullet failure at shot 106. The .256 bore diameter barrel produced its first bullet failure at shot 151. Even more interesting was the fact that the .257 barrel produced a total of 27 failures (with regular jacket bullets) right up to the last shot. The .256 barrel produced only 12 failures and stopped producing failures when the barrel was cleaned after shot 180. 40 shots were fired after both barrels were cleaned.

Now for the good news. After we finished shooting the bullets made with regular jackets we switched to the thicker jackets. Again both barrels shot 220 each by shooting a string of 20 and then switching to the other rifle. ALL 220 BULLETS MADE WITH THICKER J4 JACKETS (IN BOTH BARRELS) MADE IT TO THE IMPACT BERM.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49336-Berger-bullet-failure-test Always best to do your own testing.
 
well finally got to shoot the loads with Berger VLD's... I had to seat .110" off the lands due to feeding issue and here is what the groups looked like- I think these shoot well

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I had the same issue with the 140s in my 7mag. The seating depth makes a HUGE difference in accuracy. I started at mag length and work when I got a charge group that looked good I started backing it into the case 30thousands at a time. This is my target
I don't know why I started writing 2.--- on the target. They are all 3.--" OAL
DC2FD0FE-5717-49C0-A0F0-7C8B90741B1F-1345-000000B47FB810F6.jpg
 
The ONLY way to find out what your rifle likes is to shoot them.

My 308 win shoots them GREAT .130" off the lands!
It suprised the heck out of me!

I have shot MOA groups out past 1000 yards. I bave reached 1300 so far with this bullet, but after that distance, my bullets are destabilizing and starting to keyhole on the back board.

Just a note, the Savage 110BA in 300 win mag allows me to seat to touch the rifling with any Bullet long I have tried. From sierras 155 grain Palma bullet, to the 235 grain Chinchaga Ultra low Drag bullet. And the magazine still has around .1" of room left!
 
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