Berry's 124gr HHP 9mm Bullet Gel Test
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USBP379
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I need to revisit my choice of barrier material.
Everything I've tried, almost without exception, including my HHP reloads, Speer Gold Dots in 9mm and Federal HST's in 40 have failed to show much expansion when fired through four layers of denim. Either the Levi's denim is too think or I'm not counting four layers correctly or something but I'm seeing icepick tracks through the gel and complete pass-through after hitting the denim.
Going down to only two layers (just a swatch of trouser material folded in half) changes things dramatically and I'm seeing nice expansion and good penetration with a variety of ammo. The Berry 147's seem to work well in this environment as does the 124 Gold Dot. The 124 HHP expands rapidly and will usually three or four petals and/or break apart and give 9-10" of penetration. These are loaded to the top end of Berry's recommended velocity.
Anyway I think I'll hit a fabric store this weekend and see if I can't come up with some layers of material that will replicate what the FBI and other LE agencies are using. The denim thing seems to be somewhat of an outdated standard from the IWBA rather than what LE agencies are using currently. Current standard seems to be T-shirt, work shirt and then some sort of insulated or lined denim fabric on top to more realistically simulate winter or cool weather clothing.
I need to revisit my choice of barrier material.
Everything I've tried, almost without exception, including my HHP reloads, Speer Gold Dots in 9mm and Federal HST's in 40 have failed to show much expansion when fired through four layers of denim. Either the Levi's denim is too think or I'm not counting four layers correctly or something but I'm seeing icepick tracks through the gel and complete pass-through after hitting the denim.
Going down to only two layers (just a swatch of trouser material folded in half) changes things dramatically and I'm seeing nice expansion and good penetration with a variety of ammo. The Berry 147's seem to work well in this environment as does the 124 Gold Dot. The 124 HHP expands rapidly and will usually three or four petals and/or break apart and give 9-10" of penetration. These are loaded to the top end of Berry's recommended velocity.
Anyway I think I'll hit a fabric store this weekend and see if I can't come up with some layers of material that will replicate what the FBI and other LE agencies are using. The denim thing seems to be somewhat of an outdated standard from the IWBA rather than what LE agencies are using currently. Current standard seems to be T-shirt, work shirt and then some sort of insulated or lined denim fabric on top to more realistically simulate winter or cool weather clothing.
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USBP379
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Joanne's Fabrics was a bust if you can believe that. No cotton t-shirt material and no 200 weight fleece either.
Plan B is to get the fabric test kit from Clear Ballistics. I think it is fairly expensive for what it is but at least it'll give me a supply of repeatable material to use in future testing.
Plan B is to get the fabric test kit from Clear Ballistics. I think it is fairly expensive for what it is but at least it'll give me a supply of repeatable material to use in future testing.
AR-Bossman
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This may be over-stating the obvious, but regarding barriers and expansion:
As for the blocks, density might certainly vary with temperature during the curing process. So I would think the idea of refrigerating the blocks has merit, if the goal is to remove residual heat from the core and obtain a uniform block temperature for testing. However, you stated that at one point the blocks seemed to be softening up - it would be interesting to know if this were due to ambient atmospheric conditions or migration of the residual core heat to the rest of the block (an attempt on part of the block to self-regulate to a uniform state). But here's an interesting side note: Clear Ballistics claims temperature stability up to 110 deg F, which I figure is on their fully cured material. Just curious, how long were the blocks allowed to cure after remolding?
Thanks for conducting the test series - this has been an enlightening thread to read through. And it looks like this offering of synthetic ballistics gel is a winner as a replacement for the organic 240A standard.
- As the number of layers of barrier material increases, so does the potential for filling the bullet nose cavity with foreign substance.
- Nose cavity depth and shape are intended to allow hydraulic effects of the entering fluid (gel, soft tissue, etc.) to vector outwards against the walls of the cavity, thus providing a normal force sufficient to overcome the yield strength of the core and jacket
- (back to item one) with sufficient material in the nose cavity, the fluid medium cannot find its way to the walls to affect application of the expansion load, so the bullet continues to pass the test block with little (or no) expansion to slow its movement aside from frictional resistance
As for the blocks, density might certainly vary with temperature during the curing process. So I would think the idea of refrigerating the blocks has merit, if the goal is to remove residual heat from the core and obtain a uniform block temperature for testing. However, you stated that at one point the blocks seemed to be softening up - it would be interesting to know if this were due to ambient atmospheric conditions or migration of the residual core heat to the rest of the block (an attempt on part of the block to self-regulate to a uniform state). But here's an interesting side note: Clear Ballistics claims temperature stability up to 110 deg F, which I figure is on their fully cured material. Just curious, how long were the blocks allowed to cure after remolding?
Thanks for conducting the test series - this has been an enlightening thread to read through. And it looks like this offering of synthetic ballistics gel is a winner as a replacement for the organic 240A standard.
Dog Soldier
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I am not proposing that anyone use my type of reloads. I am a big fan of Berry's bullets. I load their 130 grs. .38 Super bullets in .38 Super Comp brass. I have shot many through a Colt 1911 .38 Super Comp. My reloads run at 1,400 fps. and very accurate.
From http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
"We used the same type of fabric specified in the FBI heavy clothing test, which calls for the following:
- cotton t-shirt material (approximately 5.25 ounces per yard, 48 threads per inch)
- cotton shirt material (approximately 3.5 ounces per yard, 80 threads per inch)
- Malden Mills Polartec 200 fleece
- cotton denim (approximately 14.4 ounces per yard, 50 threads per inch)
Lucky Gunner has test results for many factory loads. It's worth looking at in that regard, but of course they have nothing when it comes to bullets produced for handloading.
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USBP379
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I ordered two clothing test kits from Clear ballistics this afternoon. According to the salesman I should be able to get about 10 shots into each clothing test kit. Hopefully two two sets of testing material will be enough to work up some good stats on the hhp bullet. Also I should be able to compare thee material I get from Clear ballistics with material at Walmart etc so I can buy it locally next time.
Hondo 60
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I know the feeling.
A gallon milk jug filled with water looks good to a 45 Colt from a Peacemaker.
It looks WAY cool when shot with a 45 Colt from a Henry rifle.
Chronograph says it's about 400fps faster from the rifle.
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USBP379
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We have one gel block formed and ready but we're waiting to form another block so we can set them end to end.
What we're doing now is trying to strain the old dirty gel through a piece of panty hose to clean the denim and small bits of bullet fragment out. Slow going....
In the meantime, I re-chrono'ed the 124 and 147 HHP loads through my Ruger Commander. I'm getting an average of 1,159fps with the 124's and 983.4fps with the 147's. These are loaded with a "+P" charge of Ramshot Silhouette.
What we're doing now is trying to strain the old dirty gel through a piece of panty hose to clean the denim and small bits of bullet fragment out. Slow going....
In the meantime, I re-chrono'ed the 124 and 147 HHP loads through my Ruger Commander. I'm getting an average of 1,159fps with the 124's and 983.4fps with the 147's. These are loaded with a "+P" charge of Ramshot Silhouette.
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USBP379
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Here are some of the latest tests using the Clear Ballistics gel. We made two 16" blocks and laid them end to end with the hope that we'd be able to catch pretty much anything fired at pistol velocities.
We fired one HHP of 124 and 147 grain weights into bare gel followed by a shot using the new heavy clothing barrier. This new barrier was bought from Clear Ballistics and consists of two layers of cotton, a layer of fleece and a layer of denim. Results with this barrier vs. four layers of denim were pretty much the same.
Here's the 147gr in bare gel with an impact velocity of 1,007fps. The bullet penetrated 11" and opened perfectly. The bullet fragments in the second pic are pieces of the 124 HHP that fragmented in the block.
The same bullet/load was a pass through after clothing. There is some disruption visible in the first 12" or so of gel but after that the bullet settled down and left a tiny track through both of the blocks.
Next up was the 124 HHP with an impact velocity of 1,132. Interestingly this load is .4 grains less than my +P load but is still trucking along. I was hoping this load would have given me muzzle velocities in the 1,050-1,075fps range.
The 124gr against bare gel penetrated to 10" but the bullet broke apart.
Next we tried the clothing barrier. The bullet penetrated 16.25" and just barely poked into the second block. The bullet lost one petal and showed minimum expansion. But at least it did expand and didn't over-penetrate.
A third shot with the 124gr HHP through clothing resulted in a complete pass through.
All in all, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed in the Berry's HHP. They look nice, as far as JHP bullets go, and are priced well. They also seem to show some good accuracy. But the terminal performance just doesn't seem to be there. Granted, they can and do work well in bare gel and will probably work okay after passing through a light barrier like a shirt but they just don't expand with any reliability after a heavy clothing test. My guess is the 124gr bullet would stay together pretty well if downloaded to 1,000-ish feet per second. But, if I'm going to drop the velocity that much I might as well stick with the 147's.
Berry's in still on to something with the HHP even though it isn't where it needs to be yet. With a bit of tweaking I think they'll have a nice bullet.
We fired one HHP of 124 and 147 grain weights into bare gel followed by a shot using the new heavy clothing barrier. This new barrier was bought from Clear Ballistics and consists of two layers of cotton, a layer of fleece and a layer of denim. Results with this barrier vs. four layers of denim were pretty much the same.
Here's the 147gr in bare gel with an impact velocity of 1,007fps. The bullet penetrated 11" and opened perfectly. The bullet fragments in the second pic are pieces of the 124 HHP that fragmented in the block.
The same bullet/load was a pass through after clothing. There is some disruption visible in the first 12" or so of gel but after that the bullet settled down and left a tiny track through both of the blocks.
Next up was the 124 HHP with an impact velocity of 1,132. Interestingly this load is .4 grains less than my +P load but is still trucking along. I was hoping this load would have given me muzzle velocities in the 1,050-1,075fps range.
The 124gr against bare gel penetrated to 10" but the bullet broke apart.
Next we tried the clothing barrier. The bullet penetrated 16.25" and just barely poked into the second block. The bullet lost one petal and showed minimum expansion. But at least it did expand and didn't over-penetrate.
A third shot with the 124gr HHP through clothing resulted in a complete pass through.
All in all, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed in the Berry's HHP. They look nice, as far as JHP bullets go, and are priced well. They also seem to show some good accuracy. But the terminal performance just doesn't seem to be there. Granted, they can and do work well in bare gel and will probably work okay after passing through a light barrier like a shirt but they just don't expand with any reliability after a heavy clothing test. My guess is the 124gr bullet would stay together pretty well if downloaded to 1,000-ish feet per second. But, if I'm going to drop the velocity that much I might as well stick with the 147's.
Berry's in still on to something with the HHP even though it isn't where it needs to be yet. With a bit of tweaking I think they'll have a nice bullet.
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Questions for you.
Doesn't the gel need to be "calibrated"?
How far from the gel was the shot taken?
I believe that more than one shot is needed to verify performance, perhaps 5 ?
Not being critical as I know how much time and it takes to post these kinds of tests and thanks for the info
Doesn't the gel need to be "calibrated"?
How far from the gel was the shot taken?
I believe that more than one shot is needed to verify performance, perhaps 5 ?
Not being critical as I know how much time and it takes to post these kinds of tests and thanks for the info
VoodooMountain
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I was wondering the same thing as rule3. What was the calibration. I don't do any gel tests myself and am a neophyte but I have seen other tests where a slight calibration difference yielded different results.
I am also curious if a guy could fill the hp cavity with something g (like a poor man's flex tip) to assure expansion.
I am also curious if a guy could fill the hp cavity with something g (like a poor man's flex tip) to assure expansion.
There are different types of gel also.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Ballistics-Gel-Step-by-Step-Regulation-Testing-Den/
http://clearballistics.com/about/
http://www.instructables.com/id/Ballistics-Gel-Step-by-Step-Regulation-Testing-Den/
http://clearballistics.com/about/
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USBP379
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The Clear Ballistics gel comes calibrated and includes a small card with the BB penetration depth. It is not "re-calibrateable" that I am aware of. If there is a re-calibration method I have not seen it listed on the website.
The 124 HHP and 147 HHP were also tested against just one layer of cotton t-shirt. As before, the 124 penetrated to about 10" but the bullet broke apart and lost most of its petals. The 147 penetrated to about 16.5" against this barrier and expanded to about .65" but lost one petal.
The 124 HHP and 147 HHP were also tested against just one layer of cotton t-shirt. As before, the 124 penetrated to about 10" but the bullet broke apart and lost most of its petals. The 147 penetrated to about 16.5" against this barrier and expanded to about .65" but lost one petal.
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We remelted and reformed two 16in blocks and laid them end to end this morning. I fired a few of the 124's into both bare gel and with clothing barriers.
These have been loaded to give a 1,040ish average from a 4in barrel. As per usual the gel was placed 10ft from the muzzle.
The first bullet fired into bare gel expanded a little too much and dropped a chunk of petal. Penetration was 9in.
Next was another bullet into bare gel. This yielded 10in of penetration and nice uniform expansion. Also tested, and laid out from bottom to top, is one layer of t-shirt and a layer of t-shirt and denim.
The t-shirt also penetrated 10in and the t-shirt/denim combo made it right to 13in.
Last was a layer of t-shirt, shirt, fleece and denim. As with the 147, the bullet passed through both blocks and was not recovered. Wound track in the gel shows little if any expansion.
I think, at this point, I have concluded with gel testing on the HHP's. Bullets work okay through light clothing and bare gel but do not appear to be able to pass the heavy clothing test.
Overall, not a bad bullet for the money. They seem accurate and I'll probably just load the rest of them at minor power factor and shoot them as match ammo.
These have been loaded to give a 1,040ish average from a 4in barrel. As per usual the gel was placed 10ft from the muzzle.
The first bullet fired into bare gel expanded a little too much and dropped a chunk of petal. Penetration was 9in.
Next was another bullet into bare gel. This yielded 10in of penetration and nice uniform expansion. Also tested, and laid out from bottom to top, is one layer of t-shirt and a layer of t-shirt and denim.
The t-shirt also penetrated 10in and the t-shirt/denim combo made it right to 13in.
Last was a layer of t-shirt, shirt, fleece and denim. As with the 147, the bullet passed through both blocks and was not recovered. Wound track in the gel shows little if any expansion.
I think, at this point, I have concluded with gel testing on the HHP's. Bullets work okay through light clothing and bare gel but do not appear to be able to pass the heavy clothing test.
Overall, not a bad bullet for the money. They seem accurate and I'll probably just load the rest of them at minor power factor and shoot them as match ammo.
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USBP379
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Maybe although I don't know what I'd mess with to plug the cavity. Maybe a glob of silicon caulk would make a difference. The hard part with this would likely be getting a consistent squirt into each bullet.
On a related note I have a few standard pressure 9mm cartridges loaded with the SIG/Sierra 125gr V Crown and will shoot these into the gel tomorrow to see what these do. The V Crown looks like a nice bullet and has worked well for others so I am expecting good results.
But the V Crown and other bullets are fairly expensive and get away from my hope that the HHP would be a good and cheap "all around" bullet. I'm still thinking the RMR JHP is the way to go in the 124/125 weight class.
Wreck-n-Crew
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If you get a chance slow them down a little to around 1000 and see what happens in the gel. I have a feeling the penetration will be a little deeper and hold together better. Good work. nice write up!
I read to understand they were penetrating to deep & not opening fast enough.
alientrainwreck
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Here's a pic of two federal Hydrashock slugs that passed through my clothing and then through my upper thigh and the other through my hip. And you can see that they expanded perfectly. The bullets were recovered from my patrol vehicles seat.
Jesse Heywood
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Didn't your momma teach you not to use your body for bullet testing?
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