Best AK-47 under $600?

[nalioth]

^ plus the norinco pumps

Pump shotguns aren't restricted from import like semiautos are.

 

[Foxtrot427]

my mistake. I didnt read the whole thread!

 

[JustinJ]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinJ
I know of no other currently imported shotgun besides saigas that can do so. Do you?

Yep, I do.

The Safir
Beretta 1201FP
Benelli M1
Browning Maxus"

Let me clarify, other shotguns that accept "detachable" 5 round magazines. And if any do, you can kiss those goodbye as well.

"P.S. This internet info retrieval thing works the same for everybody."
Really? Well your posts made me wonder: "What study conclusion?" And I'm the one acccused of not reading it.

Now answer my other questions. Do you agree the study recomends banning importation of shotguns that can accept detachable high capacity magazines or
drum mags without modification? And if so, can you explain to me what makes you believe the ATF will not follow said recomendation?

 

[nalioth]

Please don't make me paste the whole study and annotate it for you.

Nowhere does it say that Saigas are going to be banned.

Nowhere do they refer to Saigas or include a picture of a factory Saiga.

Nothing in their list of "features attributed to military weapons" can be found on a factory Saiga, and the paper ends with this:

Conclusion
The purpose of section 925(d)(3) is to provide a limited exception to the general prohibition on the importation of firearms without placing “any undue or unnecessary Federal restrictions or burdens on law-abiding citizens with respect to the acquisition, possession, or use of firearms....”

Our determinations will in no way preclude the importation of true sporting shotguns. While it will certainly prevent the importation of certain shotguns, we believe that those shotguns containing the enumerated features cannot be fairly characterized as “sporting” shotguns under the statute. Therefore, it is the recommendation of the working group that shotguns with any of the characteristics or features listed above not be authorized for importation.

Let me repeat myself: The factory Saiga has NONE of the features listed.

Here it is for you to read: ATF Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns

 

[AR27]

This turned into about the most interesting thread going in a long while, looking forward to JustinJ's rebuttal.

 

[BushyGuy]

get a WASR GP 10/63 the quality is much better if it was made after 2008. They were actually made for the Romanian Military they had extra parts then sold them off to civilan market.

 

[JustinJ]

"Please don't make me paste the whole study and annotate it for you."
You've got to be kidding.

"Nowhere do they refer to Saigas or include a picture of a factory Saiga."
Really? So what would you call the gun at teh bottom of page 24? And more importantly, what does the drum magazine on page 30 got to?

"While it will certainly prevent the importation of certain shotguns, we believe that those shotguns containing the enumerated features cannot be fairly characterized as “sporting” shotguns under the statute."

Progress! Okay, so just simply explain to me what shotguns they are reffering to and what the enumerated features are. DETACHABLE BOX MAGAZINES AND DRUMS are one such feature. Its the most talked about feature!

 

[nalioth]

DETACHABLE BOX MAGAZINES AND DRUMS are one such feature. Its the most talked about feature!

I'm not going to argue this any more.
You seem to be "cherry picking" the parts that support your arguments.

Allow me to paste the entire list:

(1) Folding, telescoping or collapsible stock.
(2) Bayonet Lug.
(3) Flash Suppressor.
(4) Magazine over 5 rounds, or a Drum Magazine.
(5) Grenade Launcher Mount.
(6) Integrated Rail Systems.
(7) Light Enhancing Devices
(8) Excessive Weight.
(9) Excessive Bulk.
(10) Forward Pistol Grip or Other Protruding Part Designed or Used for Gripping the Shotgun with the Shooter’s Extended Hand.

Leaving the inconvenient parts of the list out to "prove" your point doesn't prove anything.

Here it is again, for anyone interested: ATF Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns

 

[JustinJ]

"Therefore, shotguns containing any of these features are not particularly suitable for nor readily adaptable to generally recognized sporting purposes such as hunting, trap, sporting clay, and skeet shooting."

Notice it says ANY of these features? It does not say ALL or a minumum number. I'm still waiting to hear which shotgun the study is aimed at if not the saiga. There may be other shotguns out there that they are looking to ban as well but the saiga is no doubt on that list.

"I'm not going to argue this any more."
Thats probably for the best.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Alright, back to the original "Which Ak for $600 or less".

Anyone else have some valuable insight or recommendations for a quality AK in this price range with data, opinions, or hearsay to back it up?

 

[JustinJ]

My recomendation would be to save up enough for an arsenal or find one used. I think they start at $700? Stay away from Century. There are some other decent AKs out there but i've never found one as good as Arsenals.

 

[JFtheGR8]

Saiga, I have yet to do the trigger conversion but that is going to be done soon. I have a Tapco buttstock, pistol grip, forend and gas piston as well as a Promag 30rd magazine for my U.S. made parts count. To make absolutely sure of that parts count and to be able to put AK mags I will do the trigger and bullet guide sometime this summer. I am not sure but I think the Saiga is the only variant with a chrome lined barrel. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong as it is likely that the higher end AK's will be chrome lined as well.

 

[JFtheGR8]

And yeah I realize the pistol grip does not count as a 922r compliance part since it was not on the original configuration.

 

[dirtymike1]

^^ IIRC since it is a one peice buttstock and pistol grip combo it only counts as one part.

God I need to get off my butt and do my conversion, need to rewatch that walk through and get my tools together.

 

[nathan]

Get a WASR or the Polish milled 1960 . The Polish has been underrated for its US made barrel but that doesnt mean it shoots good. Theres nothing wrong with the barrel . Just have to clean it every shooting which is true to all guns.

 

[nalioth]

And yeah I realize the pistol grip does not count as a 922r compliance part since it was not on the original configuration.

For clarity, this sentence refers to the Tapco or similar "all-in-one" buttstock/pistol grip combo.

If the pistol grip is attached to the receiver, it does count toward 922r.

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

Saiga, I have yet to do the trigger conversion but that is going to be done soon. I have a Tapco buttstock, pistol grip, forend and gas piston as well as a Promag 30rd magazine for my U.S. made parts count. To make absolutely sure of that parts count and to be able to put AK mags I will do the trigger and bullet guide sometime this summer. I am not sure but I think the Saiga is the only variant with a chrome lined barrel. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong as it is likely that the higher end AK's will be chrome lined as well.

I've seen quite a few of the WASRs advertised with chrome lined barrels, and anything based off a Saiga will have them as well.

 

[Girodin]

DETACHABLE BOX MAGAZINES AND DRUMS are one such feature. Its the most talked about feature!

Did you read the study? It specifically says that box mags are not seen as being a non sporting feature.

It states:

In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference between
integral tube magazines and removable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading,
reloading, and firing of ammunition. For example, “speed loaders” are available for shotguns
with tube-type magazines. These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells
and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a
detachable magazine. (emphasis added)

Further saying it is the most talked about feature is a bit misleading.

There is one paragraph about drums and the above paragraph that relates to shotgun box mags. They give a paragraph to each of the other features specific they address.

Speculate away, but lets not wrest what was actually written or act like it is anything apart from wild speculation.

 

[JFtheGR8]

^^ IIRC since it is a one peice buttstock and pistol grip combo it only counts as one part.

God I need to get off my butt and do my conversion, need to rewatch that walk through and get my tools together.

Yeah I too need to get my conversion done too but time and money don't quite line up perfectly right now. As for the pistol grip, It is not a single piece with the buttstock. It is held to the buttstock with a screw. I got the Tapco for just that reason. I can move the pistol grip forward and not have to buy another when I do my conversion. It does not count as a compliance part because it does not replace an original Saiga part as it is imported.

 

[nalioth]

Yeah I too need to get my conversion done too but time and money don't quite line up perfectly right now. As for the pistol grip, It is not a single piece with the buttstock. It is held to the buttstock with a screw. I got the Tapco for just that reason. I can move the pistol grip forward and not have to buy another when I do my conversion. It does not count as a compliance part because it does not replace an original Saiga part as it is imported.

It doesn't matter how the butt stock / pistol grip is held together - the point is that it doesn't attach to the receiver.

According to the revenuers, this is a 922r countable pistol grip, as it's directly attached to the receiver:


According to the revenuers, this is not a 922r countable pistol grip, as it doesn't attach to the receiver:

The Tapco no-mods Saiga stocks, although the pistol grip is a separate part, still doesn't count as a pistol grip.

 

[JFtheGR8]

For clarity, this sentence refers to the Tapco or similar "all-in-one" buttstock/pistol grip combo.

If the pistol grip is attached to the receiver, it does count toward 922r.

I won't claim to be an expert on the 922r code but I won't be counting any part as a compliance part unless I remove an imported part to install it. Maybe removing the wishbone linkage and installing the pistol grip counts but I'd rather make sure and replace whatever else I can without too much difficulty or expense.

 

[nalioth]

For clarity, this sentence refers to the Tapco or similar "all-in-one" buttstock/pistol grip combo.

If the pistol grip is attached to the receiver, it does count toward 922r.

I won't claim to be an expert on the 922r code but I won't be counting any part as a compliance part unless I remove an imported part to install it. Maybe removing the wishbone linkage and installing the pistol grip counts but I'd rather make sure and replace whatever else I can without too much difficulty or expense.

I suggest you read up on the 922r laws before you make yourself into a felon.

It's kinda hard to remove a foreign pistol grip when the Saiga doesn't ship with one. When you add a pistol grip (attached to the receiver), you most certainly are adding another part to the total countable parts on the gun.

 

[JFtheGR8]

Here is where I went to obtain a parts count worksheet. http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance. By replacing the gas piston, forend, buttstock, magazine body, follower and floor plate I am down to 8 imported parts. If I put an imported magazine in then I am illegal. That is why I must do the conversion in order to accept AK mags. The trigger, hammer and disconnector will replace those three parts I am counting in the magazine. Now it is my understanding that an imported pistol grip will count against you but a U.S. made one will not count for compliance.

 

[nalioth]

Here is where I went to obtain a parts count worksheet. http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance. By replacing the gas piston, forend, buttstock, magazine body, follower and floor plate I am down to 8 imported parts. If I put an imported magazine in then I am illegal. That is why I must do the conversion in order to accept AK mags. The trigger, hammer and sear will replace those three parts I am counting in the magazine. Now it is my understanding that an imported pistol grip will count against you but a U.S. made one will not count for compliance.

Adding a pistol grip adds to the total parts count. If you choose - for example - to use a nicely marbled Romanian pistol grip, you'll need to account for a US part somewhere else to keep your foreign parts count at 10 or less.

Since you've decided on a basic conversion, you won't need to replace the gas piston or hand guard, as the US made FCG + butt stock + pistol grip will provide the necessary parts.

 

[thebaldguy]

To be honest, the WASR AK rifles aren't too bad. Inspect them first for magazine fit and sight alignment. You may be surprised. I know lots of people who have not had any problems with a WASR rifle. They all inspected the rifle before purchase. Some are better than others.