Best Assault Rifle (Poll)

Which combat rifle do you think is the best?

  • Steyr AUG

    Votes: 15 3.3%
  • FN FAL

    Votes: 54 11.8%
  • H&K G36

    Votes: 15 3.3%
  • IMI Galil ARM 5.56

    Votes: 8 1.8%
  • IMI Tavor TAR-21

    Votes: 4 0.9%
  • AKM

    Votes: 58 12.7%
  • M16A2 and M4 Carbine

    Votes: 124 27.2%
  • M14

    Votes: 65 14.3%
  • G3A3

    Votes: 14 3.1%
  • H&K G11

    Votes: 4 0.9%
  • FN SCAR-L 5.56

    Votes: 14 3.1%
  • H&K 416

    Votes: 9 2.0%
  • FN F2000

    Votes: 5 1.1%
  • AK-74

    Votes: 43 9.4%
  • AR-10

    Votes: 19 4.2%
  • FN FNC

    Votes: 5 1.1%

  • Total voters
    456
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OK, check history of these rounds. Check how many people died from these rounds in the world, and how many from 223?

My suspicion would be that if you control for number issued and only look at actual direct fire . . . about the same. In places like Africa, the AK has been used in some truly horrific wars, but the actual multi-million person death tolls from those conflicts is mostly about refugees starving and/or dying from disease, not direct fire from small arms.
 
Well, first of all during WWII Germans invent a lot of things - and not only Russians follows German concept. I can mention aviation and rockets developed in US but originally - Germans.
Than, I would mention that AK (of course with worst accuracy than M16) still using in Iraq on distance far longer than 50-100m. And it is proven distance for any combat situations - up to 250 -350 m.(based on experience in Vietnam, Afghanistan in arab part of Israel)

My point was not to say that the AK is not effective beyond 100m. But rather, that the design criteria for that weapon is short range innfantry combat. The typical military issue AK is a 5 MOA rifle, making it unsuitable for long range accurate fire - at 300 yards, 50 MOA is a CEP of 15 inches, presuming the shooter does everything perfectly. Some have used this as an argument that the AK is a less than ideal weapon, however it fits with Russian tactical doctrine, which is to dismount personnekl carriers at 100 meters or less before the assault. The Russians don't expect troops to be shooting at 300yards/meters with their AKs, so it's lack of accuracy at that range is seen as unimpotant.

Dude, 1000m for M16???? It is not sniper rifle. It is no doubt more accurate than AK47 or AKM. But I tried AR16 and Vepr in the same caliber at 100 y - with similar results.

Again, you missed the point. I states that there is a rifleman mentality that says we need a rifle that can engage targets at 1000 meters, not that the M16 is that rifle. However, the M16 has been continually hampered by 'improvements' that try to extend it's range. The M16 and the 5.56x45 were originally developed around the findings of Hitchman's "Operational requirements of an infantry hand weapon" which determined that 90% of all infantry small arms fire occurs at 300 yards or less, and that small arms fire is basically ineffective beyong 500 yards. As such, the M6 was originally meant to have a maximum effective range of 300-350 yards. This of course raised a hue and cry from the traditionalists, who insisted soldiers needed a longer ranged weapon (These people still exist, and argue that we need to return to the 7.62x52mm as a generall issue infantry rifle). Effective range of the M16 is not stated as 460 meter (Army).

To further illustrate this tendency for increased range due to 'need' we have the M855 round, derived from the SS109. One of the main reasons for adopting this change in ammunition was increased range - both in LMGs and rifles. We also have the Mk 262 77gn 5.56x45mm - a round with the express purpose of extending the range of the M16.

The mentality is still there.

OK, check history of these rounds. Check how many people died from these rounds in the world, and how many from 223?

This has far more to do with the number of AKs available throughout the world, and where they are used than any intrinsic lethality. There are an estimated 45 million or so AKs distributed throughout the world, making it the single most common firearm on earth. It follows that proportionately, there will be more casualties from AKs. Further, since these weapons are often used in third world countries where medical services are primitive at best, it follows that there will be a higher mortality rate.

But the fact of the matter is that startistically, the 7.62x39mm M43 is less lethal than the 5.56x45mm. In fact, the 5.56 is 11% more lethal than the 7.62x51 according to after action studies conducted in Vietnam. This has a lot to do with how the bullets perform in tissue. Both 7.62 rounds are relatively stable and tend to flip over base first when hitting tissue, and then pass through the target.

The 5.56 by contrast, tends to break at the canneleur and create submissiles which disperse in the target (at least at shorter ranges where velocity is high). This is a very well documented phenomenon, e.g. http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

The AK's M43 round was not a specifically designed assault rifle round in the sense that they approached the cartridge the same way the Germans did. Rather than develop a new bullet, they adopted a light version of the 30 bullet already in use in the 7.62x54R (in the same way the Germans took an 7.92mm bullet and put it in the 33mm case for the StG44). The result was a relatively low velocity, stable bullet with a rainbow like trajectory.

By contrast, the 5.56x45mm was the result of work done by Donald Hall and the SCHV studies. That round resulted in a very flat trajectory obviating elevation adjustments at combat ranges, having a low recoil impulse and damage disproportionate to it's size.

However, neither round is idea for a general purpose rifle. Modern infantry combat has become more counter insurgency operations, and less large scale mechanized warfare. The current war fighter has a need for a round that can be employed for both close combat and range infantry fire - particularly as optical sights have made range small arms engagements much more effective.

Going back to the full power rifle catridge is not a suitable answer, as it totally negates the value of high volume fire in the assasult and for fixing the enemy in situ, and as noted, neither the 5.56 or the 7.72x39 are really suitable for longer range engagements.

The closest we have come to an all purpose rounds is probably the cartridges developed by the British immediately post WWII such as the 280. I would submit that a true intermediate round firing a 6-7mm bullet at 2600-2800 fps could fulfill both roles very nicely.
 
Gentlemen,

If I were facing a situation where I should get rid of all of my guns except one, the one I’d keep would be without hesitation my SIG-550.

I have had that rifle over five years now and I shoot about 2000 rounds per year with it. Up here the conditions can be sometimes a bit harsh, in February for example the temperature can drop under –40 centigrade. Still, my SIG has never failed me in three-gun competition even in extreme conditions.

H&K G36 is another very comfortable and reliable rifle but it is just too much plastic for my taste. I prefer SIG because:

- It is as reliable as AK47
- It is as accurate as AR
- It is as ergonomic as AR
- The mags are awesome
- The iron sights are best I have tried
- It is steady platform, very easy to shoot
- Needs practically no cleaning or other daily maintenance, oil in the barrel is enough

Well, it is not a perfect rifle because:

- It is a bit lengthy
- It is a bit heavy
- Trigger could be smoother (feels like AK)
- Accessories are limited, hard to get and cost arm and leg to buy

Finally, to add my opinion about AK:s: Those guns are much better in accuracy as their reputation. If I understood right my reading, you guys shoot cheapest possible ammo with your AK:s. I have two Saigas and they both shoot less than 2MOA groups with tailored homebrew ammo. But if I shoot the cheapest ammo (= wolf, DDR surplus or Bulgarian surplus) the accuracy is under all expectations. AK is effective and accurate military weapon up to 300m when you have right ammo and you know how to handle the gun.
 
Best is relative.

In full disclosure, I've used exactly four of the rifles on the list. That leaves me a lot of unexplored territory.

If I had to pick one rifle to do everything, I'd opt for the M14. I've used it and it works.

Now I can imagine, and have been in, a variety of situations where an otherwise fine weapon doesn't fill the bill as "best". For the operations of modern warfare, sevolving around close quarters and structure, the M14 is lacking in ease of use. A short 12ga. would be better. As soon as you were to leave the confines of an urban area, the 12ga would be lacking.

Not to misrepresent myself, I do not have a lengthy military carreer. I had a relatively short (6 years) and varied one. I am also a vet of the previous persian gulf war, not this one.
 
Hmm

I swear I've already responded to this thread (maybe it was another that was similar)

None of the Above!

Daewoo K2

Simple, rugged, reliable, good sights, optics rail. Not overcomplicated. Good ergos. Nice folding stock. Accurate enough.

You won't see it in video games
No full page adds in mallninjadigest telling you it's the bestest most badass ubertacticool rifle ever.
Most people don't even know what it is!

K2a1.jpg
 
I posted a similar poll back in July (see the link below), shortly after I joined this site. Although I only offered much fewer choices. Also my question was tailored to what one LIKED best, and not what IS the best, specifically because I was looking for info on assault rifles that interested me and I wanted to learn more about those rifles.

So I confess that mine was biased in my favor, but I hoped that others could learn from it. Unfortunately too many people took issue with the fact that their fav wasn't listed. Thanks to Kaylee and others, I still learned quite a lot from that poll.

As far as your poll is concerned, thanks for posting it as I have learned a lot more from yours.

I always find GunTech's posts most informative, and his posts, plus too many others to mention, have been most helpful to me.

My only surprise about this poll is that the FN FAL garnered so many votes. As
one who carried that rifle for a year back in 1974, I found it very heavy and not particularly well balanced, especially on a few of those 15 mile route marches that we did back then with full pack etc - about 40 to 50 lbs. Of course maybe some of that has to do with the fact that I'm only 5' 6" and weighed 140lbs. Still, that's just my opinion.

In its defense, I will say that I found it very easy to strip and clean and I never had any malfunctions with mine, although I did witness a few failures to feed at the range. Mine was accurate enough out to 300m with steel sites for me to earn my marksman badge.

Lastly, I personally didn't see one recruit from my group of approx 1000, including some guys who were well over 6' and 300lbs who could control that beast on full auto and get even marginal accuracy after the first shot or two.

So my choice would be either the HK416, or one of the bull pups like the Tavor. As others have mentioned, most fighting today - and more than likely in the future too, is going to center on urban warfare. The enemy likes it because it favors their tactics ( hiding amongst civilians and a few BG tie up a lot of our troops etc) and propaganda.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=290033
 
Sig 556 for me until the SCAR comes out. But the SCAR has some big shoes to fill. After running this 556 hard I'm impressed.
 
I currently have an AR-15, M-71S, and and FN-FAL . Although the FAL is heavy and the ammo is the bulkiest. I much prefer the FN-FAL. I would rather hit someone with a 150gr. projectile at 2700 fps, then a .55gr. projectile at 3200 fps. Also thos 180gr APs do a number on an engine block.

Shot Placement.......Shot Placement.......Shot Placement...............
 
Dear HorseSoldier
you tried to answer on my question:"OK, check history of these rounds. Check how many people died from these rounds in the world, and how many from 223?"

My suspicion would be that if you control for number issued and only look at actual direct fire . . . about the same. In places like Africa, the AK has been used in some truly horrific wars, but the actual multi-million person death tolls from those conflicts is mostly about refugees starving and/or dying from disease, not direct fire from small arms.

And what you've wrote - didn't answer - how many people in whole world died from 7.62 and .223? If you didn't see TV - check Internet images - how many hundreds civilians on the ground in one place. It isn't looks like they died from disease.
 
I would rather choose rifle and caliber to fit the situation with probability of resupply. What i mean is i would take an AR-10 if i would be resupplied soon. But if i will not be resupplied for days, I would take an AR-15, m-16. I like the .308s ability to smash through cover and better killing power at longer ranges. But if you wont be resupplied then your .308 with no ammo is nothing more than a club. The ar-15 or m-16 with ammo is better than the club.

Carry 8 20 round mags or .308 or 12 30 round mags of .223 on a slow resupply

All im sayin is i would rather have ammo for something than have none and my rifle be a club

I voted AR-15 M-16 and yes own and shoot ar-10 and ar-15
 
Wow. This thread garnered responses long after I thought it was dead.
Ha!
To the one person who showed disdain at not having separate M16/M4 choices, I apologize, I only had 16 slots, so I could not separate them.
With the Daewoo, it is essentially similar to the HK416, but I think more people are familiar with the 416, hence its neglect. If you want an extrensive list of combat rifles, you'll have to go to the Modern Firearms and Ammunition Site run by Max Popenker.
I later ran a thread on developing a cartridge for an assault rifle and I came up with two options:
-A 6x40mm round that weighs a little more than the .223 and shoots a 105-grain bullet at 3000 f/s for 2000 ft-lbs energy (using improved powders that I was made aware of) in a bullpup or conventional layout rifle that weighs about as much a 416.
-A 5.56x28mm round that weighs considerably less than the .223 and shoots a 90-grain bullet at 3100 feet per second for 1700 ft-lbs energy (also using improved powders) in an Uzi-style (through-the-pistol-grip) layout with a longer barrel that weighs maybe as much as an MP5 with shoulder stock.
Both of those has a case width the same as the 5.56mm round, and overall lengths shorter than the 5.56mm (~40mm for the 5.56, approximately the same as a 7.62x39 for the 6mm) and both use a bullet that I designed that combines a hollowpoint with an armor-piercing core.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think I like the 6mm more. I'm still working on the rifles, though.
 
As far as the U.S. Military goes right now, I have a relatively easy solution: make 40-round magazines your standard issue and build in a 2-round burst function. there are some things left unsolved, but the basic power issue is remedied.
Also, I think that using the Abakan's 2-round burst action (similar to the G11's) would help out a next-gen rifle's performance alot.
 
Nolo, I can tell you've not been an infantryman. Shooting from the prone is bad enough with 30 round magazines. And when thr sh*t starts flying, you can't get too low.

If I were an individual, I like several others would opt for the M-14 type rifle. It is heavy, but it can reach out and is rugged and relable as all get out. It will make a very decent DMR when equipped with a telescopic sight. and it's pretty easy to make hit on a man silhouette at 600 meters. There is also some energy left at that range.

However, If we are talking about an assault rifle ub use as part of an infantry squad, and doing routing combat tasks like patrolling, assalts, etc. I'd take the M16. There are times when you really want auto fire, and if Uncle Sugar is providing the ammo, I'm not worried about expending a little extra. In a military action, I've got my squad mates to provide cover fire during maneuver. I'm also in a much better position to close, contact and destroy the enemy.

It really depneds on the scenario - but what works for an infantryman as part of a unit is very different from what work best for an individual.
 
I never said the 40-round had to be a box mag... :evil:

But you are correct. And that does add weight. No, I have never been an infantryman, and I probably never will be. I don't handle authority too well, unfortunately.
Personally, my favorite out there right now is the FAL. It just has that endearing quality to me. Like a thoroughbred horse.
 
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