AethelstanAegen
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I'd vote M1A. In my experience, M1As are easier to shoot well but that might be my own personal bias.
Best Caliber For...
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I'd vote M1A. In my experience, M1As are easier to shoot well but that might be my own personal bias.
X-Rap
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I'd vote neither, they both have issues with mounting scopes, parts will be harder to find in a crisis, mags are cheap for the PTR but $40 a pop for quality M1A mags.
Neither will have the slightest compatibility with what your options might be for your second gun.
The PTR will be the least expensive the M1A probably the most.
Neither will have the slightest compatibility with what your options might be for your second gun.
The PTR will be the least expensive the M1A probably the most.
Clearly a .308 is going to be more effective at longer distances than a .223. It should. It shoots as fast with a bullet 3 times the weight of the average .223 bullet. But that doesn't mean a .223 won't do certain things. It's fine for varmint work etc. at least for smaller varmints. I wouldn't have a problem using it to shoot coyotes at 400 yards. That's about the limit for game size and distance IMO. The heavy bullets that have been developed in recent years have improved terminal ballistics considerably.
The military claims a kill range of either 500 or 600 yards depending on who you ask or at least that's what I've read many times on the net. You can use that caliber for humans at those distances but don't expect .308 type results.
The military claims a kill range of either 500 or 600 yards depending on who you ask or at least that's what I've read many times on the net. You can use that caliber for humans at those distances but don't expect .308 type results.
Kachok
Member
+1
260, 6.5 Creedmore or 6.5x55 if you handload they all drive super low drag 120-140gr bullets to impressive speeds, they very closly mimic high performance 300 Win Mag loads in every aspect of external ballistics including wind deflection and they hit hard enough to kill any deer well beyond 500yds. Ammo costs less and recoil will not knock you out of your boots.
I'll take my AR, or my FAL. I am good with either one out past 400y. But honestly, in the event of a major disaster a firearm is not the first thing on my list of needs. Nice to have no doubt. But there are other concerns too. Food, shelter, water, and fire all come to mind.
And if we are honest Road Warrior is an ok movie but the chances of something even remotely like that happening on a large scale are pretty slim. Snow balls in hot places and all that...
And if we are honest Road Warrior is an ok movie but the chances of something even remotely like that happening on a large scale are pretty slim. Snow balls in hot places and all that...
Here is an example of NIW quality magazines for the M1A/M14 that cost much less than $40 bucks a pop..... (They start at 19.95 each)
http://www.lrbarms.com/m14accessories.html
While your at the above site, check out thier M25 receiver.
another easy solution to mounting optics over the receiver of an M1A for example.......
http://www.bassettmachine.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSMm6qcc9c
FWIW....... The collecton of parts, mags, and ammo after a crisis does not sound very...... "simple"...... IMO. If a body just happened to run again gun parts......they will most likely be already assembled into a rifle......... but this is speculation on my part, as is anything concerning future possibilities.
What ya brought is what ya got.......if your asking....... and with whatever rifle/caliber you decide on.
Just my .02 here, but the 308 and 7.62x51mm is the better "all around" choice, and especially for those who do not reload.
As far as the "which semiauto to choose", I woud sugest that you try out a few different types to see which one feels right for you.
Examples:
1. You may or may not like the fact that some types of magazines "rock and lock" into place....vs the other "slap and tap" design.
2. The differences in iron sights between the various designs.
3. Location of the safety, charging handle in relation to the trigger and what you are more comfortable with.
4. Overall length, heft, and balance.
My personal preference led me to the T44 design over that of the T48, CETME, Kalishnakov, or Eugene Stoner's design.
This also includes the varients of the above designs.
http://www.lrbarms.com/m14accessories.html
While your at the above site, check out thier M25 receiver.
another easy solution to mounting optics over the receiver of an M1A for example.......
http://www.bassettmachine.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSMm6qcc9c
FWIW....... The collecton of parts, mags, and ammo after a crisis does not sound very...... "simple"...... IMO. If a body just happened to run again gun parts......they will most likely be already assembled into a rifle......... but this is speculation on my part, as is anything concerning future possibilities.
What ya brought is what ya got.......if your asking....... and with whatever rifle/caliber you decide on.
Just my .02 here, but the 308 and 7.62x51mm is the better "all around" choice, and especially for those who do not reload.
As far as the "which semiauto to choose", I woud sugest that you try out a few different types to see which one feels right for you.
Examples:
1. You may or may not like the fact that some types of magazines "rock and lock" into place....vs the other "slap and tap" design.
2. The differences in iron sights between the various designs.
3. Location of the safety, charging handle in relation to the trigger and what you are more comfortable with.
4. Overall length, heft, and balance.
My personal preference led me to the T44 design over that of the T48, CETME, Kalishnakov, or Eugene Stoner's design.
This also includes the varients of the above designs.
surfinUSA
Member
7.62x51/308 or 6.8 is how I would go. Although I don't have one, I'm seriously looking at building a 6.8.
The 5.45 has nothing over the 5.56 except ammo cost and it might not have that anymore. I really haven't checked because I believe the 5.56, 6.8 and 7.62x52 do the job as well or better.
The 5.45 has nothing over the 5.56 except ammo cost and it might not have that anymore. I really haven't checked because I believe the 5.56, 6.8 and 7.62x52 do the job as well or better.
.30-06 is ballistically superior to the .308, regardless of what the .308 fanboys claim.
.308 is more powder efficient with lighter bullets, but less so with heavier bullets.
In .30-06, I prefer 180 grain bullets.
For long range, I'll take a 6.5x55 Swede over any .308.
I like .223 but it is not a good stopper with the 62 grain ball. It puts ice pick holes in people/animals.
People who espouse the small bullet-high velocity theory seem to forget the fact that the small bullets only provide better wound ballistics than .308/.30-06 when the small bullets have an impact velocity of 4,000 fps or higher.
.308 is more powder efficient with lighter bullets, but less so with heavier bullets.
In .30-06, I prefer 180 grain bullets.
For long range, I'll take a 6.5x55 Swede over any .308.
I like .223 but it is not a good stopper with the 62 grain ball. It puts ice pick holes in people/animals.
People who espouse the small bullet-high velocity theory seem to forget the fact that the small bullets only provide better wound ballistics than .308/.30-06 when the small bullets have an impact velocity of 4,000 fps or higher.
Well in that case I will carry my 375H&H. 270gr bullet at around 2700fps.
Has nothing to do really of being a fan of 308....more so than the choices available in semiautomatic rifles..... as compared to available choices in 30-06 chambered rifles. ( Personal preference here, and am not saying anything bad about 30-06 whatsoever, as I have respect for this caliber)
I have seen an AR type, and the M1 Garand of course, but that is all I can think of off the top of me noggin.
The list of semiautomatic rifles chambered in 308 is a rather lengthy one.
If we are discussing bolt action rifles, then both are about dead even, so the "ballistic superiority" might have an advantage overall....... but by how much, and it's overall worth in a long action is up to the end user to determine.
I have seen an AR type, and the M1 Garand of course, but that is all I can think of off the top of me noggin.
The list of semiautomatic rifles chambered in 308 is a rather lengthy one.
If we are discussing bolt action rifles, then both are about dead even, so the "ballistic superiority" might have an advantage overall....... but by how much, and it's overall worth in a long action is up to the end user to determine.
Goju
Member
If you want to go with the smaller AR platform, the 6.5 Grendel will easily get you to 600 yards. If you want more case capacity for reloading, go with the 260 Remmy.
Kachok
Member
Yes but I have only seen one and it was pricy, but the Creedmore and the 260 Rem fit into a standard AR10 platform so they are a better choice if you want an AR.
6.5 Creedmore does cost more then 308 core-lokts or other cheap soft points but you are not going to be using cheap bullets for long range work, with long range ammo the price is about the same.
Never priced 6.5, but here is an example of very decent long range fodder for 308.... 90 cents per rd. $17.95 for 20rd box (168gr BTHP match) Brass case boxer primed.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...atch-ammo/cName/308-762-nato-all-308-762-nato
Below pic is what it does to a 200 plus lbs critter at 423 meters,(465yds) using an M1A to launch it. (Exit wound = 1.5in hole)
Cheap doesnt always equate to ineffective. Even M80 ball will put um in the dirt at 500 meters.(546 yds)
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...atch-ammo/cName/308-762-nato-all-308-762-nato
Below pic is what it does to a 200 plus lbs critter at 423 meters,(465yds) using an M1A to launch it. (Exit wound = 1.5in hole)
Cheap doesnt always equate to ineffective. Even M80 ball will put um in the dirt at 500 meters.(546 yds)
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I have been buying this stuff locally.
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Matech_CBC_7_62_M80_147gr_FMJ_50rd_box_Brass_Case_p/amu-762le.htm
................ at 36 bucks per 50rd box, too include tax.
Decent, clean burning stuff, and very consistent for M80.
Can most always hit pop up targets out to 500 meters with this stuff......provided that I lay off the coffee that day....lol
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Matech_CBC_7_62_M80_147gr_FMJ_50rd_box_Brass_Case_p/amu-762le.htm
................ at 36 bucks per 50rd box, too include tax.
Decent, clean burning stuff, and very consistent for M80.
Can most always hit pop up targets out to 500 meters with this stuff......provided that I lay off the coffee that day....lol
Devonai
Member
Without Rule of Law, that was a new one for me. I had to Google it.
It seems to me, as Robert pointed out, that the caliber of your rifle is going to be very low on your list of problems in such situations. I would be far more concerned with my own physical fitness, evasion and escape tactics, survival knowledge, and access to medical care. That said, I would be perfectly happy with any serviceable rifle in a common caliber.
It seems to me, as Robert pointed out, that the caliber of your rifle is going to be very low on your list of problems in such situations. I would be far more concerned with my own physical fitness, evasion and escape tactics, survival knowledge, and access to medical care. That said, I would be perfectly happy with any serviceable rifle in a common caliber.
ORHunter79
Member
For SHTF, I'd go with a 5.56. I like the 308, but there is a reason we went to 5.56. It all comes down to how much ammo the gun holds and how much you can carry. Marines shoot the 5.56 every year at 500 yards. It's deadly accurate as long as you make a good wind call. 30 vs 20 in a mag makes a big difference. I've shot 3" groups at 500 yards with the 5.56. It wasn't a special rifle, in fact it was a standard issue M16A2. And 5.56 is very avail. Don't worry about velocity at 500. When its WROL, a scratch and infection will kill. Also, the 5.56 even at 800 will drop a person. We've been doing it in afghan for the past few years. Good luck on your choice.
Ok, but how long does it take them before they stop firing back? Ie: Do they have enough adrenaline to be able to push through the pain?
X-Rap
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So what do you suppose your average contact distance will be?
I think you should do a little shooting with 223/5.56 and see for yourself.
In my experience 223 will ring a plate pretty solid at 600yds. Flesh and bone will probably yield to it as well.
3-4 hundred yds and the 223 is still quite impressive and while I wouldn't choose it as my deer rifle of choice in a pinch I have no doubt that it would feed me well.
The variables to answer your question about incapacitation are so great that there are few calibers that would be more adequate than the other.
I think you should do a little shooting with 223/5.56 and see for yourself.
In my experience 223 will ring a plate pretty solid at 600yds. Flesh and bone will probably yield to it as well.
3-4 hundred yds and the 223 is still quite impressive and while I wouldn't choose it as my deer rifle of choice in a pinch I have no doubt that it would feed me well.
The variables to answer your question about incapacitation are so great that there are few calibers that would be more adequate than the other.
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