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Best close-quarters defense rifles?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by DHart, Aug 9, 2004.

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  1. DHart

    DHart Member

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    I have a bias toward Marlin 1894 lever rifles and have four of them (.38 spl, .357mag, .44mag, and .45 Colt) they're great rifles. Reliable, powerful, look and feel great.

    But I was wondering what might be the very best choices for short range, home defense rifles in a modern design. And what caliber would be the most effective?

    I've been considering a Beretta Storm in .40 or .45 ACP, but what are considered today to be the best short range, close quarters defense rifles? Let's limit the choices to close-quarters use only. (Let's leave out shotguns and longer range weapons.)
     
  2. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    M4 carbine

    WildwhynotAlaska
     
  3. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Tight-group accuracy is unimportant, for your scenario. Quick-handling, as in lightweight and "handy", becomes very important. Reliability is very important.

    So, the AR, or AK clones; Minis and GI Carbines come to mind.

    Art
     
  4. Gary G23

    Gary G23 Member

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    AR-15 carbine, AK-47, AK-74.
     
  5. nhhillbilly

    nhhillbilly Member

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    Close quarters

    I would recomend the M4 also.
     
  6. Citadel99

    Citadel99 Member

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    M4 if cost is issue. MP5 if it isn't.

    Mark
     
  7. ShootAndHunt

    ShootAndHunt Member

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    Beretta Storm. It is handy and big caliber. M4 is nice, but you won't need that range capability in the close quarters defense.
     
  8. Roc_Kor

    Roc_Kor Member

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    AK-47
    AK-74
    AR-15 Carbine
    Mini 14
    Mini 30
    SOCOM 16 .308 <--LINK
     
  9. Ktulu

    Ktulu Member

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    The M4 and its variants are currently the best CQB weapons on the planet.

    EDIT: With the right ammo. Especially in a home where over penetration is an issue.
     
  10. SOT_II

    SOT_II Member

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    The best CQB gun would prolly still be an MP-5SD3.
    Rifle would be the G36K.

    Often times people confuse best with most widely used...and that's unfortunate.
    Most widely used is more a function of politics and cost than actual performance.
     
  11. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    One of the best choices for this scenario is the SKS -- yet no one mentions it.
     
  12. davek

    davek Member

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    ^^I was thinking the same thing...Paratrooper, more specifically.
     
  13. DHart

    DHart Member

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    Thanks guys... I don't know squat about any of them, so I've got some homework to do....

    Is there a particular caliber which has risen to the top of the heap for close quarters carbines?
     
  14. SOT_II

    SOT_II Member

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    You mix a couple things here but here we go.

    You say rifle, which implies battle rifle which would mean rifle caliber, then you say carbine. Yes I know many guns that are "carbines" are also of rifle caliber...but then again there are "assault rifles" in the hands of civilians that are only semi-auto again a misnomer.

    In the strictest sense for Military and Law Enforcement CQB or MOUT rifles would be rifle caliber...so I would suggest the HKG36K (which you can not buy).

    If you want a carbine and depending on who's idea of a carbine you are talking about, it would be a shorter gun shooting a round that is below a rifle caliber in terms of energy. So like 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .30
    In this instance this would be the MP5SD3...something you probably will not get and in reality it's a submachine gun, not really a carbine.

    You also mention a defensive posture...where as typically many would look at a CQB weapon as offensive in an "attack role"...SWAT going into the building, conter terrorist squads getting hostages out...bla bla bla.

    Now if you question is, what's the best home defense guns and you just fancied it up by saying CQB defensive rifle/carbine/gun -buy a pump shotgun with a pistol grip and the shortest legal length that keeps it out of NFA status and call it a day.
    Any of the rifle caliber guns are going to rip through your house, the pistol caliber guns can run some of the same risk and are not nearly as reliable as a pump gun.
    Think of it this way if you as a home owner are in a situation where you are defending your home with a rifle at a distance. or with a carbine at a shorter distance; 1. It's not CQB and 2. You will probably come up on the wrong side of the law if you shoot someone. The only justification for shooting someone at a distance would be they were shooting at you from that distance first...which precludes CQB.

     
  15. Ktulu

    Ktulu Member

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  16. SOT_II

    SOT_II Member

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    Oddly written by a company that has a vested interest in selling .223 rifles.

    Unfortunately in MOUT and most police departments they are using 5.56 NATO which is a different animal. Differnt powder, different bullets, different chamber.

     
  17. F15H

    F15H member

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    Armalite AR-10 A4 16"carbine
    168 grain TAP ammo
    Aimpoint M2 optic and mount
    Surefire of your choice

    Combine all four from above, and you're the CQB/Home defence "MASTER"
    Oh Yeah.....Last but not least learn the words "GET YOU SUM"!!!!
     
  18. PBIR

    PBIR Member

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    The weapon you mentioned would be a great choice. The Storm shoots great, is easily manuverable, give you almost all the mod possibilities of a m4 style setup, and is less expensive. The .45acp is a great defense round, superior to the 5.56 nato for civilian home defense IMHO.
     
  19. jercamp45

    jercamp45 Member

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    Extreme close quarters..............

    Normally I'd say AK and be done with it, but there are penetration issues with the round for home defense.
    Pistol caliber carbines are pretty good for anything less than 100 meters too, my vote is the MechTech CCU which turns one of my 1911's into a carbine that uses the same ammo outta the same mags as my pistol. The Storm does look interesting, but my pistol battery revolves around 1911's, so I'll simplify in mags and ammo.
    If HK comes out with a UMP carbine with standard cap mags and a folding stock post AWB....I'll be looking at one of those for shure.
    Never have cared much for the AR series, but it has come along ways and alot of urban SWAT teams are switching over too it......and you have close to 400 meter's at your fingertips. Not a bad all arounder...even for a .22!
    The M1 Carbine also gets an honorable mention. With the right mags and the 110 gr HSP.......should be quite good for the role.
    Milady has a 10/22, whereas I won't consider it the ultimate...but 10 rds of Stinger at close range should be quite discouraging!
    Jercamp45
     
  20. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    There is plenty of research (including testing by Gunsite - no fan of the poodleshooter) to support that 5..56mm poses less of an overpenetration risk in urban scenarios than most pistol caliber rounds - even military 5.56mm NATO FMJ. In fact, some of the military rounds fragment quite well.

    Here is a good resource for further info on that subject:

    http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/faq/bullet_penetration.html
     
  21. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    AR or AK clones. The AR gets a slight nod over the AK because of multiple uppers allowing both 5.56 and 7.62x39 ammunition usage, but the lower price of the basic AK allows add-ons while staying within the price of a bare AR.

    I advised a friend that wanted an entry level assault rifle (that I knew would not become a dedicated gunny due to his photography and astronomy hobbies) to get the AK. Effective, simple add ons that wouldn't break the bank, and a total price, with basic accessories, that would have come in at the same level as the bare AR. He's happy and has an effective weapon.

    Other gunnies might choose the AR for it's endless variety of bells and whistles.
     
  22. Black Snowman

    Black Snowman Member

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    For home defense, quite a bit differant than CQB, but also largely the same, I chose the Bushmaster M17S with 55 gr HP ammo. Dot sight for all lighting conditions, iron sights for backup. A little heavy but short at 30" and all the power of a 21.5" barrel.

    Chose HP ammo for reduced penetration on the walls. Very short length was a major concern due to the small doorways in my house. Not concerned with noise and flash, recieving end will get it worse than me. Live alone, don't have to worry so much about protecting others.

    Many people complain about the M17S' history of reliability problems. Even with Wolf ammo mine has been 100% and I trust it to do it's job. It's a bit heavy to be humping around the woods but it's find sitting next to the bed and fun at the range. Seen them used for as little as $500 at gun shows.
     
  23. Thrash1982

    Thrash1982 Member

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    The Beretta Storm is a great, handy little carbine. Lightweight and modifiable. Easy to attach lights or lasers if you want. If you want a pistol caliber and want to go cheaper a high-point carbine might be worth looking into.
     
  24. moorerwc

    moorerwc Member

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    .556 NATO Carbine in 1/7" twist with appropriate @77 grn. ammo.

    Far second choice .30 M1 Carbine with soft points.

    I don't know much about the interior wall penetration of the newer 6.8 SPC and .308 loads.

    Apparently not everyone has gotten the memo about there being much less risk of overpenetration in common building materials with the appropriate loads in .556--less risk to others in the building than with any pistol ammo or shotguns--kinda important to me.

    Colt M4 for me come September and I will gladly push the 870P further back in the safe.

    Pistol caliber carbines to me, having previously prayed for a Glock model, are now considered fun plinking toys. I don't have money for toys while I'm still building my defensive battery. Pistol calibers are a necessary evil used to get to something more substantial like a .556.

    -Chad
     
  25. SOT_II

    SOT_II Member

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    Ummm that memo that you are talking about is barely proved, it talks about .223 not .556 (which I would imagine you mean to be 5.56) and having seem the practical ramifications of these situations...it just ain't true.

    To the fellow that says, don't miss...yeah in a perfect world...get an adreneline dump running in your body and you'll be lucky to even hit the wall, let alone the bad guy. If you train 4 or 5 hours a day...yeah your chance of missing is gonna be pretty small....if you don't don't bet on not missing...it's a fools game.

     
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