best gun investment - planning for bad times

[Ignition Override]

You guys all have thought-provoking perspectives, whether the comments are short or very detailed.

Having just begun days ago to read some comments on a survival website (I had planned to read about guns), there were some experiences by an American guy who survived the total breakdown about four blocks from
Tahir Square in Cairo, Egypt.
He said nothing about whether he speaks a few phrases in Arabic, if at all, or much more.
Having been overseas about twenty times, I have no doubt that just a few short phrases in any local language can open doors (no pun intended). They enjoy hearing Americans try more than "dos cervezas".

His lesson in Cairo was that having previously been on good speaking terms with all neighbors and street vendors was critical. People shared some things.
In stark contrast, he states that leaving his home and hitting the road would have been much riskier.

Another person on that website who survived the prolonged nightmarish rifle sniping and mortars onto the streets of Sarajevo Bosnia during the breakup in "Yugoslavia" (early 90s-as their "fellow Europeans" stood by, not knowing what to do) lived through a worse experience.
It was probably deadly to try to leave Sarajevo, which has many hills around it, but he said that people Will fight "like animals" over food. Maybe dried food and clean, bottled water can be much more valuable than ammo?

 

[Trent]

Ignition;

About people fighting over food;

Wouldn't you put up a fight, if your children were starving?

A determined parent can become a force of nature. Regardless of species.

There's a lot of parents out there.

 

[22-rimfire]

...but he said that people Will fight "like animals" over food.

Never seen it personally, but I believe this to be true. You're starving and your family is starving; many parents will do almost anything for food for their children and that includes getting shot, shot at, or shooting taking the food by force. After a point, the body will degenerate and you can't even fight. The food search would be nighmarish for the millions of Americans in cities. After people realize how bad it is, that is when it starts getting serious, it would take a couple weeks for that mindset to set in because people always believe the Lone Ranger or the US Army is coming in another day. They might not.

Communications would be crucial. If there is absolutely no radio, TV, telephone, or internet, consider just how alone you will feel as we all take these things for granted now.

 

[Trent]

Comes to that, I figure I'll sit it out, we'll live off freeze dried goods for 6 months, then I'll head on out and see what's left.

 

[Wanderling]

You guys all have thought-provoking perspectives, whether the comments are short or very detailed.

Having just begun days ago to read some comments on a survival website (I had planned to read about guns), there were some experiences by an American guy who survived the total breakdown about four blocks from
Tahir Square in Cairo, Egypt.
He said nothing about whether he speaks a few phrases in Arabic, if at all, or much more.
Having been overseas about twenty times, I have no doubt that just a few short phrases in any local language can open doors (no pun intended). They enjoy hearing Americans try more than "dos cervezas".

His lesson in Cairo was that having previously been on good speaking terms with all neighbors and street vendors was critical. People shared some things.
In stark contrast, he states that leaving his home and hitting the road would have been much riskier.

Another person on that website who survived the prolonged nightmarish rifle sniping and mortars onto the streets of Sarajevo Bosnia during the breakup in "Yugoslavia" (early 90s-as their "fellow Europeans" stood by, not knowing what to do) lived through a worse experience.
It was probably deadly to try to leave Sarajevo, which has many hills around it, but he said that people Will fight "like animals" over food. Maybe dried food and clean, bottled water can be much more valuable than ammo?

I have friends who survived the siege of Sarajevo. This was just that, the siege. They couldn't leave, the supplies couldn't get in, there was an enemy army surrounding them.

It was not an economic upheaval. It was a very vicious civil war fueled by the bottled up ethnic and religious tensions and past abuses.

I repeat - there are different models of society breakdown due to economic issues. It's not like this never happened before. The total destruction of any structure with every man for himself and warlords ruling their little enclaves typically happens in 3rd world countries that operate at the tribal level (Somalia, Haiti etc). There, the tribal / gang / whatever you want to call it connections have always been very strong. In highly developed countries, it's usually a brief period of government instability, coupled with rise in crime and hyperinflation, after which there's a coup and some strong armed dictator comes to power. You may need your guns to protect self and family from the criminals, but once the dictatorship comes, the guns will likely be either outlawed and confiscated, or at least severely restricted. There's many examples of this happening as well - Weimar Germany followed by Nazi Reich is the best known one. Then there are the typically Eastern European scenarios which are sort of in between - the level of lawlessness and overall disorder is higher than in the first world nations, and there's major ethnic and religious tension on top, that usually end up in a civil war. This is what happened in Yugoslavia and on the outskirts of Soviet Union. There the period of lawlessness and strife is longer, however, it always inevitably ends in weapons ban and strong arm government (unless a foreign power steps in as it was in Yugoslavia). Just look at Russia and most former republics of the USSR. In Russia, with all the crime and corruption and organized crime, an average law abiding citizen with no big money or political connection who is found with any weapon is in deep, deep sh#t.

In the US, if the things ever got that bad, I think the scenario would be the same as it was in most Western countries. The crime and inflation gets out of hand, the population is frightened and desperate, there's no tribal connections to fall back upon, the only hope is some knight in white armor (and with a big sword) that would deliver them from the mess. And usually the knights are quick to step in. Sword in hand.

 

[blue_ridge]

I started this as a more light-hearted discussion about which guns would be the best investment for future unrest. I realized that there are better investments. But guns are something I enjoy buying and using. So my thinking was, I wonder which guns would be the best investments now, for a future civil unrest situation.

Since we don't know what the future holds, a gun investment would need to be versatile. Guns for hunting might be needed. Guns that use cheap ammo (22LR, milsurp) might be best. Guns that are inexpensive, since most people will likely be short on funds. Guns that are easy to work on and find parts for. If there is an inflation problem, where the dollar is worthless, having stockpiled tangible assets like guns gives you something to barter with. It doesn't mean you would drive into the city and begin selling guns on the roadside to strangers. You might simply barter some cheap guns with locals for livestock, food, tools, services etc. You need your car fixed and he won't take dollars? Go to a local mechanic and offer some ammo, maybe a 22 pistol.

Would silver coins be a better investment? Probably. But I might consider buy some of both so that i can enjoy use of some extra guns over the years.

 

[Trent]

I thought German gun control was brought on by the treaties at the end of WWI, and actually *lightened* during the German Reich.

Could be wrong but from what I remember reading about this awhile back, there were incrementally lighter restrictions on firearms ownership until the onset of WWII. Current (modern day, post WWII) ownership is more heavily restricted than the years leading up to WWII.

The obvious exception being Jews, who were prohibited from owning firearms whatsoever after the Nazi party took power. (And we know where that went..). As for the rest of the population, it was not as strict as it is today.

Anyway, been awhile since I read in to it, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

 

[Hoppes Love Potion]

A good reliable handgun in .22lr would do for most people. Ruger Mark III or SP101.

Also, you could do a lot worse than getting a bunch of .22 caliber pellet rifles. A multi-pump model like the Benjamin 392 would let you vary the power from quiet paper punching to hard-hitting varmint hunting. And ammo is super cheap.

 

[22-rimfire]

Personally I think silver is a good choice unless you are converting large sums of money into precious metals. In which case, I like gold. Who knows what the future holds for gold prices... up, down???

I think guns can be a portion of the things you might cache for hard times. I would also acquire knowledge on basic specialities and storage of bulk food products. Dried food clearly is the easiest to store for the longest time. Skills like welding might be quite useful. Being able to build a steam engine might also be a handy item when powered by coal (if available) or wood. There might not be any electricity and the steam engine could provide for that on a small scale without the need for diesel or gasoline.

I think the middle priced guns are the better choices and ones that are likely to require little maintenance. The Mosins might fit this mold as they are tough. Modest priced 22 rifles would be a good choice for survival, but aren't so good for defensive purposes. In a worst case situation, essentially you are talking arming for defensive war and clearly military weapons (EBRs) are the better choice for that purpose along with a stash of ammunition. I like Ruger Mini-14's personally. A couple of those might be handy.

You can certainly blend the "investments" with stuff you simply like to own and shoot.

 

[Wanderling]

I thought German gun control was brought on by the treaties at the end of WWI, and actually *lightened* during the German Reich.

Could be wrong but from what I remember reading about this awhile back, there were incrementally lighter restrictions on firearms ownership until the onset of WWII. Current (modern day, post WWII) ownership is more heavily restricted than the years leading up to WWII.

The obvious exception being Jews, who were prohibited from owning firearms whatsoever after the Nazi party took power. (And we know where that went..). As for the rest of the population, it was not as strict as it is today.

Anyway, been awhile since I read in to it, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Here's an excellent paper on the subject

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/nazism.nra.pdf

 

[Big Mike]

blue ridge,

I would think anything in .22 LR (rifle or pistol) would be the place to start, followed by shotgun options. Plus, lots of ammo.

 

[hso]

The hapless people that will want them won't have anything you need or want so what exactly do you expect to get in exchange for these?

How about just making sure you have the resources you and your family will need and forget about trading firearms to people who weren't prepared enough in the first place to have enough bread for the weekend.

 

[97guns]

if what your trying to do is protect your wealth from inflation and taxation by puting it into a tangible item guns are great but gold and silver serve this purpose much better. i am a hard asset advocate myself and use guns to preserve wealth but the bulk of my wealth is in the metals.

if you have real wealth then there is no other choice than silver and gold for a safe haven

 

[castingdonkey]

I have bought several large sacks of rice and beans. I wouldn't want to be trading guns in an inner city, if someone didn't own a gun prior to the shtf then thats their mistake. If I ws going to build a small surplus of weapons for defense reasons outside of what I keep for myself. I think the hipoint 9mm rifles would be the best bet. easy to function ammo is super cheap and they are under $200 if you shop around. As for glock there is no way a regular joe could afford to pile up $500 guns. Plan with your friends and neighbors for what you all will do. I work 1.5 hours from home and my wife can handle herself til I find my way home if there is a disaster.

 

[Gun Geezer]

In the future "bad scenario" to come (call it what you will) the foundations of our world will be rocked. I'm not sure money will be worth anything. Hard assests will rule the day.

Hard assests will be include food, water, medical supplies as simple as aspirin, firearms, ammo, clothing, and etc. You will need to be able to defend it and at the same be able to be generous with it to those in need.

It is more blessed to give than to receive. What I give will be returned in good measure. But I'm not letting anybody take it.

 

[ShawnC]

As a government employee, I can tell you if there is a breakdown, and the checks stop coming, there will be a mass exodus from service...and a lot of us have guns.
That doesn't mean there won't be military action, but there will be fewer soldiers who would be willing to go along with mass gun confiscation than you might think.
While no resistance would be easy, I think our culture, or at least a lot of the people protecting or rights, would make it less difficult than in a society where people swear allegiance to a leader, rather than an ideal (like the Constitution).
I wouldn't be surprised if whole sections of the armed service turned against the leadership in the event of a sudden smackdown of rights.
Now a slow incremental change is a different story, as signing up like minded recruits to replace more "radical" personnel would take some time.
Wait...this is a gun forum, right? Talk about guns, and gun related stuff? Umm... Hooray for firearms! I like guns! (whew)

 

[IBEWBULL]

Investments gain in value a lot by geographical area and political rants.
Right now Wisconsin is a new comer to CCL and handguns in the mid to small range are moving.
The "look alike assault" types are flooding the markets. So many prices are depressed and with the economy in the crapper values are down.
The classic collectibles have always held value. Python is a good example here.
be aware there are a lot of "fishing" high prices out there.
The investment utility guns have always been able to keep their value. Deer guns and shotguns. Remember it is only a good investment if you buy it low enough to make a profit or have need for your use. Most of us are not going to pack a $1200.00 Python.
If you look at the NIB prices and compare them to the used price of some older guns you can guess on future value. No guarantee though.
Ammunition if bought right will always be a good investment.None of the guns will work without them so demand will be there.
I have invested some over the years and supposed value has gone up. Example is my Mitchell Arms Stainless Luger. I think i paid about $700. Now they are abut $1000 on GB But i never had an offer of that much anywhere.
I have not listed it either so it remains a safe queen. It don't eat much and I have no expense in it being there.
If I had invested the $700 in the market it would most likely be worth $600 now.If I were lucky.
Back in 1970 my uncle told me to invest in over and under shotguns. i didn't like the looks of them and ignored it. So all the Brownings , Winchesters , Franchi and even Savages for less than $400 are now a mute point.
After all these years it is still a coin toss.
If you are interested in an AR 180 LNIB with 10 mags made by Sterling PM me.
Those are not common and should go up.
Good luck and watch the market.
If Obama gets back in and goes wild with Pelosi prices will sky rocket. They are attempting to lull patriots into a false sense of security. I recall it is not time for that yet comment. I don't remember which dem. made it.

 

[Hoppes Love Potion]

I do think if you start stockpiling cheap rifles you will get a visit from BATF.

I think in a societal breakdown a concealable handgun is going to be a lot more useful than a MBR. Violent crime and property crime will be a lot more common than any running gun battles against police or military.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I do think if you start stockpiling cheap rifles you will get a visit from BATF.

I don't see how. No guns, other than NFA, are in any sort of federal database for the feds to search through. no red flags are going up unless you live in the border states where the constitution has been thrown out of the window. I can buy as many cheap long guns as I have the money for, all at once at the same store, or over a period of time from several stores. The BATFE will have no knowledge of such sales unless the sellers contact and inform them. Stockpiling cheap rifles is neither illegal or suspect, as long as you aren't then turning around and selling them for profit without an FFL.

 

[22-rimfire]

I would suspect it depends on the "stockpile".

I don't see any kind of "battles" with law enforcement or our military unless you are the "bad guy". There simply are not enough of those to go around. I would more than likely be on the side of law enforcement and the military.

 

[razorback2003]

A 22 rifle and 22 handgun (revolvers are great because reliable with rimfire ammo) are great things to have. You can hunt just about anything with those two and the ammo is cheap. A single shot shotgun is also good and simple. If you can legally do it, you could deer hunt with a 22 rifle. If not legal to use a 22, a single shot shotgun with a slug will work for deer.

I had family that just used 22 rifles for all kinds of hunting during the 30's. I have heard of family eating blackbird pie during that time.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Not to drag this off topic, but in an EOTWAWKI situation, without rule of law there would be no 'sides', cops and soldiers might not act as honorably as we would hope. Wearing of a uniform does not a saint make.

I would hope they would still be honorable enough, but in such a scenario, I'm not betting my family's safety on it.

I had family that just used 22 rifles for all kinds of hunting during the 30's. I have heard of family eating blackbird pie during that time.

My grand father grew up during the first depression. Stories such as this were not uncommon.

 

[devans0]

For TEOTWAWKI, have a lot of 9mm, 870s, AKs and ammo. Then you can become your own warlord.

Having been in a natural disaster, the best guns for me were a screw gun and nail gun.