best magazine/magwell design?

[jason41987]

hey everyone.. i was reading another topic on here, and it got me thinking of all the rifles out there that use the AR-15/STANAG type magwell... and it got me wondering why.. besides the obvious in that they all want to be NATO compliant and use the STANAG magazine.. but is it really the best magazine/magwell design out there?

obviously this is going to be very subjective and opinionated, but i would like to hear others opinions on why they think this is the best magazine/magwell design, or why they believe it isnt, and what they believe is....

heres my opinion... in rifles, all cartridge seem to be tapered to some extent between the base and the shoulder... so naturally when stacked theyre going to have a tendancy to stack with a radius to them... like trying to stack two pieces of pizza side by side, though not as extreme.. and in a straight magazine or magwell it doesnt really allow this so well, this is why 7.62x39, and 5.45 work very poorly in AR15 style magazines for converted AR15 rifles

also, with the straight magwell designs, when seating the magazine you rely on using force alone to seat the magazine straight into the magwell.. and sometimes it doesnt seat properly and this can cause feeding malfunctions, so many people with this type of magazine have learned to smack the bottom of it to ensure proper seating

and my third negative on this type of magwell is its restrictions in the size of magazines, all unusual style magazines such as drum magazines, casket magazines, etc require the top portion of the magazine to conform to the width and length of the magwell

there are some advantages, such as they drop free easier (usually), and offer better support to the magazine itself

on the other side of this ill compare AK type magazines... when you seat them, you use leverage to rock them back and once snapped in place, theyre seated very securely, very reliably... i would chalk up much of the AKs reliability to its design of the magazine/magwell allowing a constant radius curve to the magazine, and a more reliable seating

other advantages are unconventional magazines will work better with these, such as drums, helicals, caskets (quad stack)

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so what do you like more, and why?.. out of all the different types of magazine and magwell designs out there, not restricted to STANAG and AK?

 

[Coop45]

Does the AR-15 really need a drum magazine. That sounds like a really awkward way to carry ammo. If a 20 or 30 round magazine messes up you throw it down and load another one. Throw your drum down and you have a single shot. Possibly the AK's reliability comes from the fact that it's built like a $3. pocket watch.

 

[jason41987]

i dont personally use them, but its just an example as to the versatility of the AK style magwell, which in a lot of 5.56mm AKs can be converted to a STANAG magwell with a simple adapter which shows even more versatility for a rather magwell-less design

for the AR15 magwell, the advantages i see for it are mainly drop free (which can sometimes not work) and it does protect the magazine a lot better

 

[Adam123]

Possibly the AK's reliability comes from the fact that it's built like a $3. pocket watch.

That's one of the more uneducated comments I've read in a while.

 

[Billy Shears]

You're forgetting to mention another big advantage of the AR style mag well: it allows much faster reloads. It's not only quicker and easier simply to press a button and have the magazine fall out (as opposed to having to take extra time to shuck it out, as with the AK), it's also quicker and easier simply to insert a magazine into a hollow opening and slam it home than it is to hook the front edge of the magazine into the AK style mag well and rock it back into place.

The Stanag magazine is a legacy of the M16's original design. It was designed around a straight, 20-round box, and cartridge taper was dealt with by allowing the follower to tilt slightly. After facing AK's in Vietnam with their 30-round mags, however, the army wanted a 30-rounder for the AR, and those have never worked quite as well. Gene Stoner hated them. There's no reason why the M16 couldn't have been made with a slightly larger mag well, that allowed a box magazine with a straight sided exterior where it sits in the mag well, but a constant curvature interior, but it wasn't designed that way, because back in the '50s when it was designed, magazines over 20 rounds were extremely rare, and no one saw the need. Now we're stuck with the mag well we've got, even though it's less than optimal.

The most recently improved magazines in the AR work reliably, and I don't care a bit that an AR-style mag well makes it harder to have drums, drum magazines are even less reliable -- far less reliable -- that the curved/straight 30-round AR magazines, even with the older followers. I've read that one of the reasons the Aurora shooter's AR jammed was that he had a drum magazine in it, forcing him to switch to another weapon. If that's so, and he'd stuck to box magazines, the death toll might have been much higher, so thank God he didn't.

 

[HorseSoldier]

+1 on the AR being an ergonomic winner. Some modification to the geometry of the mag well might make for a better design (allowing more curvature of magazines, and/or allowing different cartridge shapes to feed better), but it is superior to the AK (or other rock & lock pattern) mag wells for a gunfighting sort of weapon. I've seen experienced shooters under stress flub AK reloads more than once -- the mag lock up might be more robust in theory, but it is also a more complicated fine motor skill to make it work with adrenalin pumping.

 

[siglite]

All I can say is that of my rifles, the AR mag system is the quickest, and most ergonomic. My basis of comparison on semi-autos is 10/22, M14, AK, and AR-style magwells/mags.

In reality, the design is one thing. Another cost to consider in time and resources is training. What one might get down-pat and committed to muscle memory with an AR type mag might take half the repetitions of an AK or M14 style mag. It's just easier. Could it be improved? Yep.

Also, I've noticed a training trend away from slapping the mags to ensure a good seat. I saw why in my last class. I was still firmly entrenched in "slap-to-seat." I slapped a mag in, slapped it, fired a round, and the mag fell out. Joy.

The instructor behind me said, "Um, yeah, that's why we're teaching seat-tug now."

Any issue (such as that one) can be overcome with training. The question might just come down to "how much training?" And minimizing that is a good thing.

Plus, with the AR mag design, there's at least a gross similarity in manual of arms with most handguns. Press button, mag falls, seat new mag. The big difference for me is that in the carbine training I've done, they've wanted dropped mags retained. Which hasn't really been a big focus in my handgun classes.

 

[Walkalong]

Possibly the AK's reliability comes from the fact that it's built like a $3. pocket watch.

That's one of the more uneducated comments I've read in a while.

The way I took it was that the AK works so well because it is simple, and I agree.

Calling an opinion "uneducated" adds nothing to the thread, and could be misread as insulting the poster. I assume you meant no insult to the poster.

 

[TrickyDick]

From experience, The AR push button is nice... when it works, and the simple slide in method is handy. As far as AK magwells, I personally like them because you put them in just like you take them out, and it works well for me. I also like the fact that when it's in, IT'S IN. It's all about personal preference, people who aren't exactly fine tuned with their weapon system might prefer an AR magwell for simplicity reasons, but it's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[jason41987]

they used to train seat, bump, and now seat, tug... doesnt this take away from the quicker magazine change when youre adding these extra actions to ensure its seated properly, and if you dont do these things, it may not seat properly and cause a feeding problem or fall out entirely?... and is an AK really that slower when you smack the old mag off with the new one, then (rock and lock)... i would have to say that extra bump or tug tends to even the time out it takes to reload making that less of a difference

and to say a good magazine design... meaning youre almost always guaranteed a proper seating of the magazine, and the magazine is curved to fit the contours of the stacked ammunition for the entire length of the magazine is an "uneducated statement" in itself would be an uneducated statement..

ive not had many stoppages with AR15s myself.. so i asked around to many AR15 owners that have, had to have asked atleast a couple dozen and i asked them what the usual cause of their stoppages/jams are, and probably about 75% of the responses were magazine related, the other 25% of them were related to ammunition, or a lack of cleaning

so when a good majority of your stoppages are related to the magazine, either the shape restricted of the a longer magazine, or the higher possibility of an improper seating, isnt it worth noting?

 

[barnbwt]

My VZ58 has (basically) an AK magwell, and I like the rock-in-place method more than slide-in simply because the feel and force of seating the magazine is more uniform whether it is full or empty. The increased leverage makes pressure caused by the follower/rounds irrelevant.

I've had my FNAR box magazines (and especially my Five-seveN pistol magazines) try to squirt back out because I didn't quite slide them in past the catch. When full of 20 rounds, that follower is really stiff to move. I could always just whack the thing harder as a matter of course, but that's a less efficient use of my movements that (in a rifle) could be fixed with a different mag design.

Somebody with a PS90 or AR57 needs to chime in since their mag setup is kind of a hybrid of the two; slide the mag down to the end of it's channel and push the feeding end into the reciever. I wish someone would design a PS90 with the magazine on the left side of the reciever (eject on right side) since you'd get the great hi-cap mag setup, with the typical bore axis/optics of modern carbines.

TCB

 

[henschman]

The best mag well design would be one which allows a curved mag, and for which the mag inserts straight in and drops free.

 

[siglite]

they used to train seat, bump, and now seat, tug... doesnt this take away from the quicker magazine change when youre adding these extra actions to ensure its seated properly, and if you dont do these things, it may not seat properly and cause a feeding problem or fall out entirely?... and is an AK really that slower when you smack the old mag off with the new one, then (rock and lock)... i would have to say that extra bump or tug tends to even the time out it takes to reload making that less of a difference

and to say a good magazine design... meaning youre almost always guaranteed a proper seating of the magazine, and the magazine is curved to fit the contours of the stacked ammunition for the entire length of the magazine is an "uneducated statement" in itself would be an uneducated statement..

ive not had many stoppages with AR15s myself.. so i asked around to many AR15 owners that have, had to have asked atleast a couple dozen and i asked them what the usual cause of their stoppages/jams are, and probably about 75% of the responses were magazine related, the other 25% of them were related to ammunition, or a lack of cleaning

so when a good majority of your stoppages are related to the magazine, either the shape restricted of the a longer magazine, or the higher possibility of an improper seating, isnt it worth noting?

In my experience, no, it doesn't add any time to seat/tug versus seat/slap. My biggest challenge (right now) is rewiring the ol noodle to the "new" technique. (It's just new to ME, right?)

Smooth mag changes with that method seem to be just as fast as seat/slap. In my observations, it's a little faster than the AK rock/lock thing. But having said that, there are plenty of guys out there that change AK mags faster than I change AR mags. That's a training/practice/muscle-memory thing. I just have to catch up!

I suspect, just due to the mechanics, that learning the AR style mag versus learning the AK style mag is probably not as steep a curve. It just seems that way, intuitively.

And, my M14? Oh, I can change mags plenty fast, if I'm cool with about a 50% rate in getting it rocked in and seated properly.

 

[henschman]

I suppose the best mag/mag well is probably the G36 design. Constant curve mag with straight in and drop free.

 

[jason41987]

In my experience, no, it doesn't add any time to seat/tug versus seat/slap. My biggest challenge (right now) is rewiring the ol noodle to the "new" technique. (It's just new to ME, right?)

Smooth mag changes with that method seem to be just as fast as seat/slap. In my observations, it's a little faster than the AK rock/lock thing. But having said that, there are plenty of guys out there that change AK mags faster than I change AR mags. That's a training/practice/muscle-memory thing. I just have to catch up!

I suspect, just due to the mechanics, that learning the AR style mag versus learning the AK style mag is probably not as steep a curve. It just seems that way, intuitively.

And, my M14? Oh, I can change mags plenty fast, if I'm cool with about a 50% rate in getting it rocked in and seated properly.

you must have misinterpreted me, i meant the seat/tug and seat/smack takes more time than simply seating the mag without a tug or hit

 

[siglite]

you must have misinterpreted me, i meant the seat/tug and seat/smack takes more time than simply seating the mag without a tug or hit

Oh, I did misinterpret you. And yes, it obviously takes more time. But unfortunately, it's become necessary, as I demonstrated in the middle of an already complex drill. Adding complexity to it (a second mag change when mine fell out) didn't help, either.

 

[Fishbed77]

I wish someone would design a PS90 with the magazine on the left side of the reciever (eject on right side) since you'd get the great hi-cap mag setup, with the typical bore axis/optics of modern carbines.

I'm guesing this would cause some weird balance issues with such a small & light gun. Probably why you don't see side loading mags (such as those on the Sten, Sterling, MP18, etc.) much any more.

 

[barnbwt]

^^^I thought that's because they stick way out and get in the way of everything . I hadn't thought about the weight issue; I've never held a loaded PS90 mag, but I can't imagine 50rnds of 5.7 to be all that heavy. Especially if it's only an inch or so off the center-axis.

Just a thought, I haven't seen anyone try it before on any platform. I suppose it would only be good for pistol-sized cartridges, though (mags would get tall fast)

Another (crazy) thought; a "semi" bullpup that places the mag to the left of the grip, and feeds into the side of the reciever. Would make the vertical profile much lower, with most of the shortness of other bullpups, but you wouldn't have to reach allll the way back to insert your mag.

TCB

 

[DammitBoy]

my third negative on this type of magwell is its restrictions in the size of magazines, all unusual style magazines such as drum magazines, casket magazines, etc require the top portion of the magazine to conform to the width and length of the magwell

I fail to see why this is a problem or an issue? The two drum magazines I have for my AR (beta c-mags) fit perfectly and function flawlessly in my AR's.

 

[Billy Shears]

Another (crazy) thought; a "semi" bullpup that places the mag to the left of the grip, and feeds into the side of the reciever. Would make the vertical profile much lower, with most of the shortness of other bullpups, but you wouldn't have to reach allll the way back to insert your mag.

The Germans did that in WWII with the FG42 paratrooper rifle. The result was generally held to have negatively affected the balance of the weapon, and it made carrying it at the ready slightly more difficult.

 

[jason41987]

having magazines on the side isnt a good idea.. they would not be drop free, obviously, and would need to have a supported magwell.. also, it completely destroys the chance of being ambidextrous, and although lefties can shoot right handed, technically they can write right handed as well, doesnt mean theyre not going to benefit greatly from a left handed configuration, or for that matter, those who are left-eye dominant

P90s were designed to be completely ambidextrous, but putting the magazine on top of the rifle they did a couple things here... they made it ambidextrous, so each half of the rifle is a mirror of the other, also, their mags are clear so you can see how much ammo you have left (another cool thing about unrestrictive magwells)

i know people dont want to say the P90 is bullpup.. but it is... though the magazine may hook on the front, it is in fact fed, fired, and operated behind the trigger

but this is all off topic.. the P90 doesnt exactly have a magwell, so magazines like this P90 has, if they existed in a rifle size, could theoretically be adapted to fit in an AK platform fairly easily.. in fact, there is an AK type submachine gun that uses a helical magazine that clips in the front at the gas block and closes on the magwell like any other magazine.. thats the russian PP-19

that means theoretically, if you could make your own magazine you could adapt an AK to fire helicals and the P90 style magazines too

 

[mortablunt]

the P90 doesnt exactly have a magwell, so magazines like this P90 has, if they existed in a rifle size, could theoretically be adapted to fit in an AK platform fairly easily.. in fact, there is an AK type submachine gun that uses a helical magazine that clips in the front at the gas block and closes on the magwell like any other magazine.. thats the russian PP-19

I think that the AK has a wonderfully designed "well". The trouble is knowing when you've made contact if you're not watching your hands. The only flaw is that you have to consciously take out the magazines instead of just pressing a button to let em' drop. At least you know when the mag's in and it won't fall out. The AR series has a great design. However, with drop free designs, you have to be careful to ensure that you really got it in all the way or else it'll come out on you. There's also the occasional blooper of mashing the mag release by accident. IMO, I like the G3/FAL design which has a very secure AK-style rock'n'lock action, but also comes with a pseudo-well which offers a great deal of guidance.


Wells are easier to use than lugs for speed reloads, although practice plays a huge role too. That's one thing the AR got right. However, I've never met not heard of anyone whose life was saved in a gunfight because they could before an ultrafact tactical reload in 4.8 seconds with their M16a3 while their opponent with an AKM took 5.1 seconds. Besides, real operators work on teams to support each other and tac fast reloads, AFAIK, aren't actually all that commonly done in actual fights.
I have never used a real gun with a side or top mag. I think that the top would make aiming a real pain and a side mag would mess up the balance. If it's a real hassle of a featherweight nerf for 20min HVZ sessions, then it must be a real nuisance using the real deal.