Why the AK's magwell is better than the AR's...

[Nolo]

so you're just standing there jamming mags in and out, for no reason?

These things don't happen in a vacuum.

I am taking it from a design perspective, and I have said it many times.

Well I've used an AK, a Valmet RK-76 for an extended period of time while I was in the finnish army, I've also used other semi-AK versions afterwards. I've only used an AR once. But I did find it was easier to use the AR, atleast to get the magazine in, just slap it in the rectangular hole. Couldn't entierly say about the mag eject, it'll have to wait until I get an AR.

Thank you very much for your input.

 

[Bobarino]

Nolo,

you really can't pick out one feature on a gun in the way you're doing here without taking into consideration the other features that it interacts with. remember, our end goal with this discussion is a mag change and getting back into action as quickly as possible right? if thats not the goal then what is? if its just an opinionated academic debate, its really a complete waste of time. aside from the fact that you yourself are not JUST talking about the mag well. you also speak of the mag release.

now then, since our end goal is to get from an empty gun back to a firing gun we must consider ALL actions and design features to go from one state to the other.

AR: hear different last shot.

press mag release and let spent mag fall to ground while retrieving full mag.

insert mag into well.

hit bolt release.

fire.


AK: hear click.

press paddle release and remove mag.

discard old mag.

retrieve fresh mag.

rock new mag into position (this takes considerably more precise movements than slapping in an AR mag)

change support hands.

rack bolt.

change back support hands.

fire.


rather than be a wise ass and ask people to debate to meaning of infinity, maybe you should listen to those who have the experience, being as you have admitted that you have very little if any.

i know you're young and your enthusiasm about firearms is admirable BUT you need to learn to listen when people offer you advice. don't just blindly defend your position just because its your position. all the books and listening to others who claim to have been navy SEALs is no substitute for gaining the first hand experience for yourself. thus i should qualify my opinions by saying that i have somewhere around 5,000 rounds through each type of rifle we're discussing here. while that makes me no expert by any stretch of the imagination, i've changed enough mags in both to say that the AR is the better design as far as ease and speed of mag changes go, in pretty much all respects, IMHO.

Bobby

 

[blackhawk2000]

I've ran them both. AR is better.


I take it you AK supporters have never locked the back of the mag into the well, and then tried to get it out.

Sure the AK mags are super tough. No contest there.

AK: Boom boom click. Reach for mag with weak hand. Launch old mag with new mag. Hope you don't lock the new mag in rear end first.

AR: Boom boom sproing. Drop old mag with trigger finger, at the same time the weak hand is going for new mag. Push new mag into well, pull on new mag to make sure it is seated.

It's economy of motion. All the time is saved when you are going for the new mag because the trigger finger did the work already.

 

[rob_s]

"from a design perspective"? What the hell does that mean?

That's like discussing which woman has nicer toes. Complete waste of time if one of them is 350 lbs with buck teeth.

Go out and shoot, and stop worrying about the minutiae.

 

[Nolo]

you really can't pick out on feature on a gun in the way you're doing here without taking into consideration the other features that it interacts with.

No, I can't. But people take the best features of a design an discard the worst ones all the time.
I came to the (rather surprising) conclusion that the AK's mag assembly is better designed than the AR's, I am less certain of it after this thread, which is good thing. Uncertainty makes me think of a better way, which is always a plus.

if thats not the goal then what is?

Design a better rifle.

aside from the fact that you yourself are not JUST talking about the mag well. you also speak of the mag release.

An excellent observation.

rather than be a wise ass and ask people to debate to meaning of infinity, maybe you should listen to those who have the experience, being as you have admitted that you have very little if any.

It is very easy to get me to listen to you.
However, one of the ways to get me to NOT listen to you ("you" being used here as a general pronoun, no in reference to you, Bobarino) is to insult me.
Being called a "troll" is insulting me.

i know you're young and your enthusiasm about firearms is admirable BUT you need to learn to listen when people offer you advice.

Perhaps you should read more of the thread. Areas where I say things like this:

If anyone can point out flawed logic or bring to light information that shows that my assertions are incorrect, I would love to hear them.

And this:

Good point, Matt.

And this:

That I agree with.

And this:

Oh, to all those who think the AR magwell design is better:
Thank you for your input.

Maybe, just maybe, at seventeen I have already learned how to listen.
Maybe, just maybe, I am not being a smartass when I say something, but merely bringing to light things that I think are wrong with opposing arguments, mostly to see whether my own questions and thoughts can be answered.

listening to others who claim to have been navy SEALs

Trust me, Mr. Valentine was definitely a SEAL.

for gaining the first hand experience for yourself.

I reside in a dorm at Texas A&M. Exactly what are you suggesting I do?
I already plan range trips with Deer Hunter, which is far more exposure than I formerly got in Maryland.
What more do you want me to do?

I thank you for your civil and critical input.

 

[Nolo]

"from a design perspective"? What the hell does that mean?

That's like discussing which woman has nicer toes. Complete waste of time if one of them is 350 lbs with buck teeth.

Go out and shoot, and stop worrying about the minutiae.

It means I am designing a new rifle and I am exploring what features are and are not the best.

 

[SN13]

AR style is infinitely superior to AK style. The fact that the AR style requires less motor skill alone makes it superior to the AK style.

The whole "one hand, two hand" talk is BS. If a Mag in both rifles were stuck, which would be easier to pull out? With the AR, you would press the release and yank DOWNWARD with the other hand with all your might. Very simple operation. With the AK, you would have to pull downward and forward REAL HARD while your thumb is trying not to let go of the mag catch. Too cumbersome.

Oh and if you were to miss the front lug on a rock n' lock mag trying to put it into the rifle (AK for example), you can accidentally lock in only the back lug. You know what that means in CQB?

DEATH!!!!!


.....unless you drop it and use your handgun. But who wants to use handguns when everybody else is using rifles?

But there's no way you could mess up like that with the AR's "straight chute" (no pun intended) design.

Tell that last bit to the Marble Falls, TX Woman>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VWIeK-LQc0

 

[stiletto raggio]

One definite advantage of the AK system is ease of using drum mags. The requirement of an extended feed tower on the AR makes reliable drums a bit more complicated to make. How relevent this is depends on how utilitarian you think drums are, but IMHO, the 75 round AK drum is probably the best rifle drum out there.

Also, let me say that as a guy who started perusing knife and gun forums in my mid-teens, that you are exhibiting a great degree of maturity. Some guys won't listen to those younger than them simply because they feel inherently superior or more experienced. I get tired of hearing the same old crap when I go to gun shops, and I am 26 now. Keep you head up and you eyes open. You have valid arguments here, I just disagree with your conclusions.

 

[HaveBlue83]

I LOVE the AK's design. Being a left-handed person I can do the mag change spetsnaz-style rather quickly. Charging handle is right there, safety is there as well.

I HATE the AR's design. seen a LOT of mags not slapped hard enough on the floorplate to be seated. I have had a LOT of M-4/M16 weapons Brought to me with "double-feeding, bolt-override, and jamming" directly associated with mags that were bad. I have NEVER heard of AK mags just jamming rounds up unless in the case of hollow-points. That is more a feed-ramp issue with SOME rounds.

if the military would use QUALITY mags like Magpul/HK across the board a LOT of issues would be remedied with the M4/M16

I DO agree with the HK magwell design......square hole with a paddle release....and throw in a button for good measure. Smart.

(ARMT 45B)

 

[Wes Janson]

I am taking it from a design perspective, and I have said it many times.

Okay, then consider this from a design perspective: it's harder to load a full 30-rounder into a magwell if the bolt is closed (a la AK) then if it's open.


There really isn't any debate that I'm aware of amongst serious shooters out there-the AR magwell wins hands-down. The AK's mag release is generally seen as one of the biggest drawbacks of the AK, not as a beneficial and desirable feature. How many current military rifle designs do you see in the Western world that incorporate a paddle release?

 

[Evil Monkey]

Tell that last bit to the Marble Falls, TX Woman>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VWIeK-LQc0

Non-Sense.

Put in a mag backwards is no where near as common as missing the front lug on an AK mag. After all, when putting in an AK mag, you're trying to do the correct motions, but an accident happened.

Putting any mag backwards mean you jacked up before you even started.

 

[HaveBlue83]

i know what everyone is saying on the accidental insertion.i HAVE done this, but only on certain AK/SKS types, and when I was doing it I somehow did something different on the insertion. my SAR-1 never seems to give me this issue. my SKS that takes AK mags does this, but that's because the well is up in the weapon and its harder to see the front of the mag well.

 

[raz-0]

Well, i'd like to point out one thing that is very important that the AK side has been saying. To paraphrase "with an AK, if you are not fast, you need to practice."

There is a very important thing when considering a design. How simple is it to use? As a new rifle shooter, I started with semi-autos. I was introduced to rock-and-lock style mags and press the put it in the hole and shove style magazines, and I can tell you hands down that the delta from being a total newb to regular success at mag changes, and rate of increase in speed of mag changes was WOLRDS different. Not to mention, with the AR controls, you get a degree of crossover in the manual of arms from pistol to rifle.

The push it in the hole and shove is simply easier and more intuitive, and on top of that, most all people become faster at it quicker. Taking someone with no familiarity other than having seen crap in movies, they are much more likely to get someplace with the AR than with the AK, for good or bad.

Then of course there is the big oops for both. With the AR, it's reversing a magazine. For the ak and other rock and locks, it's getting one end locked in and having to fix the mess. The AR's big problem can largely be mitigated with prior planning and development of some basic habits when gear handling (i.e. orient your gear the same way when things are calm and quiet,retrieve mag with index finger in the same spot each time). The Ak requires a greater degree of care each and every time.

Then after the big oops, and trying to avoid it, you have the question of remedial action. With rock and lock systems, I'm having to move everything about and it seems awkward, and like i need a third hand. Maybe it is easier with practice, but I'm giving you my perspective from being a rifle newb at the time. With the AR, you look at the mag for orientation, and either yank it out and reinsert, or smack it harder. Both easily accomplished with one hand. both very simple.

You want to constrain this discussion to Just one part, but this simplicity in learning and operation stacks across the board for the most part.

That isn't to say the AR doesn't have some definite design shortcomings. The design spec for the mag lips on the magazines is lacking and a bit too intolerant of variances in manufacturing as well as general abuse. Also, the charging handle is a huge PITA if you have a really bad jam, which the mag lip issue makes more likely to happen in general.

 

[Nolo]

Okay, then consider this from a design perspective: it's harder to load a full 30-rounder into a magwell if the bolt is closed (a la AK) then if it's open.

That sounds like a change that needs to happen to the bolt, not the magazine assembly.

There really isn't any debate that I'm aware of amongst serious shooters out there-the AR magwell wins hands-down. The AK's mag release is generally seen as one of the biggest drawbacks of the AK, not as a beneficial and desirable feature. How many current military rifle designs do you see in the Western world that incorporate a paddle release?

There's a lot of "if we're already doing it, why change it?" out there. I am not arguing against you, but the argument that "if they're not using it, it must be crap" stifles innovation.

Also, let me say that as a guy who started perusing knife and gun forums in my mid-teens, that you are exhibiting a great degree of maturity. Some guys won't listen to those younger than them simply because they feel inherently superior or more experienced. I get tired of hearing the same old crap when I go to gun shops, and I am 26 now. Keep you head up and you eyes open. You have valid arguments here, I just disagree with your conclusions.

You have brought me back to happiness in this thread. Thank you.

I appreciate the knowledge in this thread. But I will still explore a modified variant of the AK magwell, and see if I can overcome some of the less obvious problems.
Maybe even a slight hybrid (not like the HK hyrbid, which I find to be a little dumb) would help, such as an actual shallow well for the magazine on the AK, to prevent locking it wrong.

As an aside, I identify much more with Kalashnikov than I do Stoner.
Looking at his earlier designs, as well as his small amount of writings, he appears to think as I do. Stoner, I think, does not.
In addition, it is a marvel that the AR-15 is considered a "LEGO gun". From studying the earlier prototypes, I can see that Stoner didn't deliberately put ANY growing room in that rifle, and it has been giving people headaches ever since.

I appreciate all constructive comments, and thank you.

 

[NonConformist]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I prefer the AR style over the AK.

I have seen some real fast AK reloads, but i prefer the AR. To me its more intuitive.


Then again, to me an Ar feels like it was designed for me specifically too, whereas the AK feels like a 2x4

To each their own

 

[Owen]

Nolo, you aren't relying on gravity for the magazine to fall out. The follower is pushing against the bolt catch. The mag doesn't fall out, its pushed out, and the well is big enough that once the mag is moving, its not gonna stop.

The AK does have an advantage in locking in. That leverage from the rocking motion means that it's unlikely that the mag won't catch when its full.

The real reason why AR mags are downloaded to 28 is that to make it much easier to get the mag to catch when the bolt is forward.

I think an AR push button with a rock in magazine would be a decent thing.

 

[Evil Monkey]

That isn't to say the AR doesn't have some definite design shortcomings. The design spec for the mag lips on the magazines is lacking and a bit too intolerant of variances in manufacturing as well as general abuse. Also, the charging handle is a huge PITA if you have a really bad jam, which the mag lip issue makes more likely to happen in general.

HALT!!!! ATTENTION PLEASE!!!

We are not discussing the quality of mags, or the rifles charging handle. We are only discussing the way a rifle magazine locks into place, and only that.

For that there are MANY other rifles that use rock n lock or straight lock (whatever the term) but don't share the AR or AK's other features, good or bad.

 

[rob_s]

amongst serious shooters out there

Which is ultimately the problem with the entire premise of this thread.

nolo, I applaud you for your interest, but you need to get out there and shoot these things to understand the mechanics. No amount of forum reading or book-learning is going to substitute for actual field experience. It's pointless to even begin to debate the issue with you right now. We might as well be debating the cause of the Challenger explosion.

 

[hankdatank1362]

I take it you AK supporters have never locked the back of the mag into the well, and then tried to get it out.

True. That really sucks, and it could easily put you out of the game.

 

[HaveBlue83]

^^I have....

then again...i pre-check every mag I buy before use and make sure it attatches without being too tight or with too much wobble.


same thing with my M-4.....but if I THINK the mag is bad, I smash it and get a new one.

 

[briansmithwins]

Brian,

Why do you say AK mag changes involve your right hand? I keep my AK shouldered and just use my left hand when I change magazines.

I've tried it both ways and the whole sequence is faster for me right handed.

AKs mags also go in mag pouches differently than AR mags, for me. I get the fastest reload times by having the AK mags upright with the bullets pointing to the left.

How I reload the AK:
1) My right hand comes off the pistol grip.
2) Thumb hits the mag release and I can then either sweep the mag out of the way or grab it for storage in a dump pouch.
3) Fresh mag is grabbed with right hand with tip of index finger touching the front corner of the mag.
4) Bring it to the magwell, feeling for the rivet with my index finger.
5) When fingertip meets rivet, rock mag back, avoiding the dreaded 'locked mag' syndrome.
6) Right hand then runs bolt and returns to pistol grip.

Cheek weld never needs to be broken and eyes remain on target. BSW

 

[rob_s]

I've heard that the Iraqi army trained that same way, as did/do many AK centric countries. Since the right hand is on the same side as the charging handle, the right hand does the loading.

I think that if I was super serious about running the AK full time I might give that method a try. As it is I'm just dabbling for a year and don't want to completely relearn something that won't carry back over to the AR.

 

[yenchisks]

youtube this.(g3 m-16 ak-47) and see the deference

 

[jws527]

And since the vast majority of AK owners bought for no reason other than price, and since the vast majority of all gun-owners do not shoot in an environment where a magazine change matters, the poll would be essentially worthless.

Oh, I don't know - if both rifles could be had for the cost of a typical AK, I'd probably still buy the AK. I actually like the way it looks and I love the rugged simplicity of it. It's hard to ignore my inner engineer.

If, however, they both cost as much as a typical AR, I probably wouldn't buy either one.

 

[benEzra]

Click on empty chamber to discover you are empty. Use the weak hand thumb to press the lever. Shake the gun vigorously with strong hand. Magazine will drop out within 2 seconds about 75% of the time. If this doesn't happen, place the butt on the ground; use one hand to press the lever, other hand to rotate out the magazine. Inserting new magazine: *Carefully* align the front tab of the mag with the recess in the receiver and then rotate the magazine in. Be sure to use your fine motor skills for this the first time and get it right, because if the tab misses the recess, you are likely to have to start the entire process over from the beginning of the unloading stage, and/or got a mag jammed in there sideways. Once the mag is in, rack charging handle. Fire...

If that's the way you run it, of course it's slow.

Don't just press the button and wait for the mag to fall out; for a reload w/retention, wrap your left hand around the mag, press the release with your thumb, and pull the mag out. For a reload w/o retention, hit the release with the spare mag and push the old mag out.

AK: hear click.

press paddle release and remove mag.

discard old mag.

retrieve fresh mag.

rock new mag into position

change support hands.

rack bolt.

change back support hands

fire

AK does NOT require you to switch hands to run the bolt.

I think you need to spend some more time running an AK (verses watching videos of other people running one, before you make a comment like this. It’s very easy to miss the release lever with the “whack it” method (which is likely why that is NOT how the soviet manual of arms teaches their soldiers how to do it).

They didn't teach that method because regular soldiers were trained to always retain the empty mag, not drop it on the ground.

Some special units DID include speed reloads w/o retention in their repertoire, though.

BTW, no need for the insults, please. I shoot my SAR-1 in USPSA. Mag changes are slightly slower than an AR, but not much so.