Why the AK's magwell is better than the AR's...

[Nolo]

Why the AK's magwell is better than the AR's: a newb's opinion that Stoner got it all wrong.
Okay, a few disclaimers first:
I have zero combat experience.
I have shot an AR and and AK, once and twice respectively.
I have very little rifle experience in general.
I am not speaking to any other features of these weapons, just the magwell.
Having said the above, I have spoken extensively with several individuals who have large quantities of combat experience, and I do my best to gather information and analyze it and synthesize it before I draw my conclusions.
Now, for the reasons why:

The AK magwell:
-Can change mags just as fast as an AR's*.
-Provides positive ejection of the spent mag*, which the AR's doesn't.
-Is simpler to design, manufacture, grok and use.
-Is easier to train grunts on (the AR magwell requires the coordination of two hands. The AK magwell only requires that one hand do any work.)
-Is more flexible (AK magwells can, if machined out, accept mags with OALs of anywhere from 0-70.0mm, with the use of a simple restrictor plate**; also, the AK's magwell allows the use of super-wide rounds, like 20 and 12 gauge.).
-Allows the use of AK mags, which are both plentiful and robust***.
-Is fully ambidextrous, and simply so (AR's require a whole separate lever assembly to be fully ambidextrous).

Now, downsides versus the AR magwell:
-Requires a sort of change of training if soldiers are originally trained in the most basic form of magazine change to become fully proficient. This is easily remedied by just training them in the right method from the start. It takes about 5 minutes to learn...
-Most warfighters in the US are trained to us ARs. Many, however, are also trained to use AKs.


*Using the "click, bump, rock and roll" method. This method has three motions (retrieve fresh magazine, bump mag release with fresh magazine, insert fresh magazine). An AR mag change also has three motions (push mag release, retrieve fresh magazine, insert fresh magazine).
**As far as I know, this has not been done yet.
***Obviously this is not a benefit if you are using a non-AK caliber.

If anyone can point out flawed logic or bring to light information that shows that my assertions are incorrect, I would love to hear them.
(Flame suit on)

 

[For Freedom]

I think you're right.

 

[Acheron]

I agree.

A well-founded argument. A good use of logic as well.

Keep thinking about this stuff Nolo. We need guys like you.

 

[Matt-J2]

Umm...3 motions does not equal three motions, unless the same 3 motions are used for both. They aren't.

The biggest difference is in seating the mag, or lining it up to be seated, rather. AR is easy. Rectangle peg goes in rectangle hole. Apply force. Done.
AK needs a small tab to line up with a small ledge, then rectangle block goes in rectangle hole. Not straight in, but you get some leverage from the tab to help. Apply some force(different direction, though), and you're done.

AKs can certainly be reloaded fast, just saying that 3 does not always equal 3.

 

[Nolo]

Good point, Matt.
I think the AK magwell can certainly be improved, like on the 7.62x39mm version of the ACR.

 

[mr.scott]

I'm with Matt. Another reason the AR is superior is that I can press a button and the mag falls out. On my AK I had to grab the mag, push the lever and remove the mag since it has the lip on it that engages the receiver.
Advantage AR.

 

[Deer Hunter]

I hope shooting my FAL, Saiga, and AR helped with this, Nolo.

Great points all around. I'm more used to "rock and lock" mag patterns.

 

[Nolo]

I'm with Matt. Another reason the AR is superior is that I can press a button and the mag falls out. On my AK I had to grab the mag, push the lever and remove the mag since it has the lip on it that engages the receiver.
Advantage AR.

I already addressed that.
While one can remove the AK mag by grabbing it and the mag release, removing the spent magazine, retrieving a fresh magazine, and inserting a fresh magazine, it is far more efficient to grab a fresh magazine, use the fresh magazine to trip the mag release and simultaneously shove the old magazine out of the magwell and insert the new magazine.
Spetsnaz operators have perfected this operation, as have many American AK owners (including a friend of mine, who just posted above me Hello DH!).
Also, one of my rules of design is never rely on gravity to do the work for you.
It WILL fail at some point in time.
There is relatively little force on an AR magazine when it is supposed to drop free of the magwell, and a lot of friction on the magazine from the well itself. In contrast, there is very little holding an AK magazine in place and a lot of force on it (the force of the new, incoming magazine).
Some AKs are built too roughly to achieve a Spetsnaz reload. However, I am disregarding the AK and AR rifles themselves, only the design on their respective magwells.
If you have read my previous threads, which I in no way expect out of anyone on this board, then you should have a feeling for where I am going whenever I make a statement or ask a question.
That is, to the drawing board.

 

[Nolo]

I hope shooting my FAL, Saiga, and AR helped with this, Nolo.

Great points all around. I'm more used to "rock and lock" mag patterns.

It did, indeed.
That mag change is easy. I was surprised.
I have decided to get a Saiga 7.62 and convert it in a while.
I'll let the ACR go until later, especially since I want the 'x39 version.

 

[Ethereal]

My Disclaimer: I don't have any combat experience either.
I do own two ARs and 2 AKs though..
I feel 100% proficient with either, with a nod to the AR platform.
I'm not bashing, arguing, upset, or anything or than interested in this discussion. High road right? Here I go....

Sorry to disagree on a couple points, but for starters I think the AR magwell is fully ambidextrous, albeit easier for left handed operators. I'm left handed and have had no problems whatsoever using the AR platform in regards to the bolt release, safety, charging handle, and most of all the magazine release. I won't get off topic too much so I'll stay with the issue of the magazine release. For me it's a simple quick one handed move; whether I choose to simply drop the mag freely or grab the empty mag with my right hand at the same time pressing the mag release with my right thumb. If your test AR cannot drop a mag freely on its own I'd suggest looking at other factors besides design flaws, like an out of spec lower, etc.
Also I'm curious how you consider an AK to be more positive in ejection with a spent mag as opposed to the AR. Where one design drops freely the other must be rocked out, a motion not as friendly as simply pushing a button.
Finally I will admit that I'll most likely never have the option of buying a 12ga. upper for any of my AR's, let alone shimming my lower or adding restrictor plates. But on the bright side I can still shoot 5.56 again, and I'm sure the availability of AR mags is right up there those for an AK.

 

[hankdatank1362]

I'll raise you one.

I think most aspects of the AK are superior to the AR. Other than sights, safety, and factory wooden stock ergos, two of which can be easily remedied.

I like the idea of a converted Saiga-esque milled reciever Kalashnikov with HK drum sights and a nice polymer stock/grip/fore end. In 7.62x39, or maybe 5.45x39 (Which I have no experience with.)

Nice rugged mags. More than combat accurate.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Also I'm curious how you consider an AK to be more positive in ejection with a spent mag as opposed to the AR. Where one design drops freely the other must be rocked out, a motion not as friendly as simply pushing a button.

Never had an AR mag stick, have ya?

Lot easier to hammer out a steel AK mag... with another AK mag.

 

[Picard]

From my experience with the AK, some magazines are extremely difficult to remove. They jam the mag lever in a position making it hard to push. I'd imagine if that happened in a combat situation, I'd have to take cover, drop the rifle and use something hard to push against the mag lever. Anybody have experiences like this?

I prefer the AR magwell but the AK does the job too when it works.

 

[Ethereal]

Never had an AR mag stick, have ya?

Nope, guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

 

[Nolo]

Never had an AR mag stick, have ya?

Lot easier to hammer out a steel AK mag... with another AK mag.

Wait, I have people defending my position?
Is this really THR!?!?

 

[Kind of Blued]

Not the mention the magazines themselves.

"You got a hammer?"

"Yeeep!"

 

[Hoppy590]

Wait, I have people defending my position?
Is this really THR!?!?

ya because even those who champion the AR admit the magazine is the weakest link

 

[Evil Monkey]

AR style is infinitely superior to AK style. The fact that the AR style requires less motor skill alone makes it superior to the AK style.

The whole "one hand, two hand" talk is BS. If a Mag in both rifles were stuck, which would be easier to pull out? With the AR, you would press the release and yank DOWNWARD with the other hand with all your might. Very simple operation. With the AK, you would have to pull downward and forward REAL HARD while your thumb is trying not to let go of the mag catch. Too cumbersome.

Oh and if you were to miss the front lug on a rock n' lock mag trying to put it into the rifle (AK for example), you can accidentally lock in only the back lug. You know what that means in CQB?

DEATH!!!!!


.....unless you drop it and use your handgun. But who wants to use handguns when everybody else is using rifles?

But there's no way you could mess up like that with the AR's "straight chute" (no pun intended) design.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Well, IMHO, the AR magwell design is far better than the AK. Let me say I have no combat experience with either, but lots of range experience with both, and a very modest bit of military (ROTC) time with the M16.

As long as you can keep the front and back of an AR mag straight, the AR mag is faster to insert and far faster to remove. You also don't have to rock it and worry about it latching. With moderate practice mag changes on an AR can be done faster than any other common rifle I can think of (the Robinson XCR and RRA LAR-8 probably are a bit faster still due to the bottom mounted bolt release). AK is also slowed down by the lack of a last shot bolt hold-open, though that's not solely a magwell issue.

OTOH, the AK magazine itself is far better than a typical AR magazine, I think.

I'm a big AK fan in general, but I don't think the magwell design is a benefit over the AR.

 

[Nolo]

AR style is infinitely superior to AK style. The fact that the AR style requires less motor skill alone makes it superior to the AK style.

It doesn't require less motor skill. It requires fine motor skills, something the AK's doesn't.

The whole "one hand, two hand" talk is BS. If a Mag in both rifles were stuck, which would be easier to pull out? With the AR, you would press the release and yank DOWNWARD with the other hand with all your might. Very simple operation. With the AK, you would have to pull downward and forward REAL HARD while your thumb is trying not to let go of the mag catch. Too cumbersome.

It isn't. Some of us have a difficult time training both our hands to do two different things at once.
Actually, there's only a certain amount of stuck an AK mag can get, because the interface between the mag and well is so little. Now, if the fit is REALLY bad, you can certainly still get a really stuck mag, but when made to American tolerances? An overall better design.
It's really not all that hard to pull the latch and mag at the same time. I got a mag stuck in Deer Hunter's Saiga, and, while it certainly took strength, it wasn't any harder than the AR mag, which has less surface area to grab on to.

Oh and if you were to miss the front lug on a rock n' lock mag trying to put it into the rifle (AK for example), you can accidentally lock in only the back lug. You know what that means in CQB?

DEATH!!!!!

And you could insert an AR mag backwards. That's what training is for. And a guide well, which, admittedly, the AK lacks. The locking mechanism, however, is sound.

.....unless you drop it and use your handgun. But who wants to use handguns when everybody else is using rifles?

That I agree with.

But there's no way you could mess up like that with the AR's "straight chute" (no pun intended) design.

Yes there is. You can fail to insert the mag all the way, just like an AK. Happens quite a lot among the inexperienced. A well-drilled soldier will be able to avoid error in both.

 

[anymanusa]

after using both extensively, I feel the AK magwell is superior to the AR. I have no problem whatsoever 'rockandrolling' an ak mag, but the insertion of an ar mag often requires too much, or several slaps to get it into place.

AK all the way on the mag issue.

 

[Nolo]

As long as you can keep the front and back of an AR mag straight, the AR mag is faster to insert and far faster to remove. You also don't have to rock it and worry about it latching.

Keeping the front and back straight enough to insert is actually hard to do under stress. I know from other areas in life. Why do you think they make flared lips on new lowers?
And in every rifle that uses magazines, you have to worry about latching.
That's why they hit AR mags to ensure seating properly.
With an AK mag, you are jamming a thin part (the corner of the mag) into a wide void (the well). Then you rock it in to lock it. All this can be accomplished in one fluid motion. I have done it myself with zero training and very little practice.
With an AR mag, you are jamming a part into a void roughly the same size. This can be fixed with well flair, but that requires more metal to accomplish.
Rocking an rolling is actually a very natural motion, requiring little coordination. Like pulling a lever.
Now fitting the square peg in the square hole is an entirely different matter.

 

[Nolo]

Oh, to all those who think the AR magwell design is better:
Thank you for your input.

 

[Evil Monkey]

Since we're at it, I really think the best type of mag well is one that is like the AR, yet has a release like the AK. Just shove the mag in, and to take it out you grab the mag and release like you would an AK but just yank downward instead of rocking it out. All with one hand, and it's naturally completely ambidextrous.

Examples
G36

HK33/53

 

[dscottw88]

Lets take a poll.... Shall we? With that said, I'm much more proficient with my AR than I am with my Saiga, when it comes to shooting, handling, and reloading.