Why the AK's magwell is better than the AR's...

[RP88]

AR's is better. It requires less effort. Both guns feel ergonomically great to me though because I'm left-handed, so I don't feel the bad effects of the AK set-ups, and actually find them as natural-feeling as the AR. However, if there is one thing that I prefer about the AK, it will be the safety. With the AR, everything for me is in a different place or side of the gun. With the AK, the mag catch, charge handle, and safety are all like two inches apart. I like that. that can interfere with handling the gun because of how your hand can't be too far back while shooting lefty because the bolt or handle can clip you if you're not paying attention tp just how close your hand is, but whatever -- I don't bunch up my stance that much.

But, holding the gun right/normal-handed reveals the problems with the AK's ergos and set-ups. Your operating arms feels very limited that way. That is the real problem.

 

[sarduy]

i think is just practice

 

[MGshaggy]

It's just a stamped piece of metal, basically the outside of an AK's magwell, that can be fitted and replaced easily onto a magwell bored out to Saiga-12 dimensions.
You could then fit the weapon for magazines in any caliber from .22 LR to 12 gauge.

So you can use different mags by adding a 'restrictor plate'. Great. Now how does a .22 or 12 ga. mag work with a pressed & pinned 7.62x39 barrel? With an AR15/M16 I can use .22, 7.62x39, 9mm, .45, 5.56, 5.54x39 mags all with the same receiver/mag well.

 

[rob_s]

MG this is all fantasy land anyway. You just wish the barrel off and wish a new one in it's place.

 

[Matt-J2]

You're missing the point. It's not to compare the AK itself against the AR. It's just the magwells. It's an 'all other things being equal' situation. So in this idea, there's one rifle, interchangeable barrels, bolt hold open, whatever you want. The only difference between models is magwell(and also the mags, I suppose).

 

[gvnwst]

You just wish the barrel off and wish a new one in it's place.

he said that it is for a design of his, so what if he is making a AR type rifle, with a more "advantagous" AK well? he would be able to swap uppers, in a greater caliber range than a standard AR.

 

[elChupacabra!]

I'm going to come out and say that I think the AR magwell seems to work better for a lefty than a righty, ESPECIALLY if you intend to retain your empty magazine. I grab the mag with my fingers, press the release with my thumb, and into the dump pouch it goes, just like that before retrieving a fresh magazine

Now I understand that, in a combat situation, this might not be as good, as a shooter might not care so much about retaining their magazine as getting back into the fight... but, with that said, I'm a private citizen with a limited supply of magazines, so I need to take good care of each of them, as there may not be any replacements available eventually

 

[MGshaggy]

You're missing the point. It's not to compare the AK itself against the AR. It's just the magwells.

Right, so whats easier - adding a 'restrictor plate' so you can use different caliber mags, or using a mag well thats already compatible with a wide variety of different caliber mags?

I think you've missed my point. Having to add a 'restrictor plate' is either a downside to the AK as compared to the AR, or at best its an irrelevant issue. But that said, I'm not the one stretching to make the 'AK mag well is better' argument.

 

[gvnwst]

Right, so whats easier - adding a 'restrictor plate' so you can use different caliber mags, or using a mag well thats already compatible with a wide variety of different caliber mags?

but you have to buy those mags, typically they are expensive. i think he means, using AK mags for 7.62x39,
10/22 mags for a .22lr version, ect...

that way, the mags are cheaper, and you can use them in guns other than this one.

 

[SuperNaut]

I'm going back in time here, but when I was in ROTC we used old de-commissioned M16's. If you ever used the mag as a grip you'd get FTF and a knock-upside the head from your Sergeant. I've never had either issue with my Saiga...

Is this an issue with AR's?

 

[gvnwst]

not with mine...

 

[rob_s]

You're missing the point

Nope, we've got the point. A Virgin is trying to design a condom.

 

[gvnwst]

actually, he is trying to decide which type is best.

 

[Matt-J2]

Right, so whats easier - adding a 'restrictor plate' so you can use different caliber mags, or using a mag well thats already compatible with a wide variety of different caliber mags?

No, I get your point, and agree. I was referencing your comment about the pinned barrel(and honestly, the comments of quite a few folks in the thread). The pinned barrel element is irrelevant, since we're not talking about an AK itself, just an AK style magwell.

I think I already established that I think the AR magwell is a bit better, but I understand what Nolo is trying to do in the thread, which is comparing two very distinct parts for consideration in an as yet incomplete rifle design.

 

[Owen]

Supernaut,

did you experience the FTF, or were you just told?

It's pretty common to use the mag as a monopod/forward grip these days. I'm wondering if the guns were shot, or if the Sgt was carrying over "knowledge" from the M14.

 

[SuperNaut]

I never personally experienced it, I was just told. So, good point; could be completely anecdotal/prejudicial. These rifles were pretty shot-out too, turned me off to AR's forever.

 

[Matt-J2]

I've experienced that owen, but I hesitate to mention it as I believe it was only with blanks, the use of which always seemed to have a number of issues.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Disagree. The AR is superior (for *me*), for all the reasons mentioned several times over - faster, easier, less movement and motor skills required to change an AR mag. Though the AK mag does have certain advantages, as pointed out.

I can concede that if one is very WELL-trained, then the AK is equal or even superior. But the average-skill-trained, or below-average-skill-trained person (including myself), the AR is superior. For an army *which has the time and resources to well-train*), the AK can be amazingly fast.

 

[HorseSoldier]

It's just a stamped piece of metal, basically the outside of an AK's magwell, that can be fitted and replaced easily onto a magwell bored out to Saiga-12 dimensions.
You could then fit the weapon for magazines in any caliber from .22 LR to 12 gauge.

How is this any different in ultimate effect than the mag blocks they sell for pistol caliber AR uppers?

Seems like if we're just talking about the mag well design, and not talking about production weapons at all (since the difficulty with a multi-caliber AK due to barrel design issues has already been discussed), you could just as easily make an oversized AR style magwell that accepts various block designs to get the same end result. (Or just go with the Cobb (?) multicaliber mag well design, which is already out there . . .)

The stamped restrictor plate may be hypothetically easier to fabricate than a machined block, but who actually benefits from this? 99%+ of military applications would not find this useful (and possibly a liability, if there's even a very modest dip in durability or reliability).

For the civilian shooting market, I'd note that caliber changes on an AR are easy, but the vast majority of AR shooters (upwards of 90%, I'd guess) don't take advantage of that ability. Of the ones who do, almost all probably have one or perhaps two secondary calibers besides 5.56. Guys with four or more calibers of AR uppers are probably in the statistical static, in terms of a commercial market.

Anyway, I'm not saying the idea is a bad one, I'm just not sure it's an especially commercially significant one, or a major strength of the AK mag well.

 

[benEzra]

There's no room for your "they both work and let's all be happy" approach. Straight lock is better than rock and lock because it's easier to work with.

...unless your mags are coated with mud that dries and glues your mag into the weapon, or the rifle gets wet from condensation and then the temp drops below freezing, locking your straight-lock magazine firmly in place. The AK magwell is less susceptible to that sort of thing in the first place (no long parallel surfaces with tight clearances), and if it does happen somehow, you can free it by pushing the release and whacking the magazine forward with another mag. You can't whack an AR mag out of the rifle, though; you'd have to dissassemble the rifle and hammer the stuck mag out from the top.

AR magazines have a bit of an ergonomic edge under most conditions, yes. That doesn't mean the AK system is inferior in all areas, just different.

 

[Vaarok]

I feel that while a valid argument, the discussion is somewhat flawed because it considers the AK and the AR magazine wells without as much consideration to the AK and AR magazine systems, which are half of the interaction.

The AK has a good magwell combined with excellent mags, the AR has what could be a good magwell combined with magazines that are far more often fussy.

Personally, being a lefty, I feel the AK magazine is far more positive, forgiving of operator error, and faster, while the AR magazine suffers from the need to align the magazine within the well (I concur with an above poster- why aren't the wells flared!?), and the relative fragility and straight-line geometry of the magazines renders them less forgiving to my mind.

And not to be a jerk, but I really have to give credit to the FN-FAL, which to my mind compromises the magwell of the AR with the AK rock-and-lock, and having one side of the mag-well be a guide plate and the other open really facilitates prone reloading and is a good compromise for the flared magwell idea without becoming a crud-funnel.

I just wish it was on the other side, being a lefty.

 

[SN13]

You need to look at this a different way.

It's not "Are ARs better than AKs"

It's "Which mag well system provides a better flexibility as well as function?"

We're pretty split on whether AR mag wells are better or Worse when it comes to speed, ease of use, etc.

But I doubt very highly that you can argue that an AR receiver is as flexible a system as an AK receiver when it comes to mag wells.

 

[MGshaggy]

But I doubt very highly that you can argue that an AR receiver is as flexible a system as an AK receiver when it comes to mag wells.

Baloney.

How many different caliber mags can you buy for an Ak; three or four?

A standard AR can take mags in more than double that amount (.22, 9mm, .45, x39, 5.56, 6.8, 6.5, 5.45x39, .50 bwf, etc...). And thats not even considering a variable dimension mag well system like MGI sells. So to be fair, if you're going to consider adding parts to an AK system (like a 'restrictor plate'), you should also consider what can be done with something like a modifiable mag well system by MGI.

 

[Evil Monkey]

Nope, we've got the point. A Virgin is trying to design a condom.

***!? Too good.

Back to the thread.....wait what thread? There's nothing to argue here anymore. Everything has already been laid out and this discussion is bound to become a war of opinions and/or diverted into off topic discussion like 'which mag is stronger' or 'bolt hold open device' and similar talk.

 

[Owen]

Thing is, I don't think mag well flexibility is really something to be shooting for, because there is a real risk of causing other problems with functionality.