Best tactical shotgun?

[LevelHead]

I know "best" is subjective.

I currently own a Mossburg 590 Marine coat.

Somehow I've now got the itch for a Benelli tactical money evaporator.

Any other quality models out there?

What are your thoughts on semi-auto for defence/tactical use? I dig the Benelli M3 dual-action...

 

[oldpaladin]

LevelHead,
IMHO, it's the Benelli M1014/M4S90. I have two. Mine are equiped with Meprolight 21 Reflex sights and Meprolight night sights for the ghost rings. Only thing I don't have yet, and still on order since November, is the 2shot mag extensions. Accuracy, reliability, dependability, durability- all are without equal. Fit and finish are equal to, or better than the most expensive autoloaders. Using Remington Express 2 3/4" 00 Buck loads, pattern is 6" at 25 yards. Using Winchester 2 3/4" 1oz rifled deer slugs, group is 4" at 100 yards... Not bad, eh? These beauties do not consume law enforcement or low recoil loads well. Use full power loads only- you won't be disappointed... The ARGO (Auto Regulating Gas Operating) System is extraordinarily effective and self cleaning... So far, they're only producing 2500 of the Commemorative M1014 series, but who knows? Maybe demand will be such that after the various military and police organizations meet their needs, they'll open the production lines full throttle... One can only hope... How do I rate these against my other guns, past and present? Simply the very best. True works of art... My Glock 21 and 30 for carry, and my Armalite M15A4(T)â„¢ Carbine for more than 126 yards. My Benelli's are for CQB to 125yards, and unless there is a human wave attack in the neighborhood (Not Likely, I Hope! LOL), I'll grab one of them... Total, complete confidence in this weapon system... Hope this gives you an idea of what I think is the best...

Carter, oldpaladin, out...

 

[ahadams]

I know what you mean about the tactical money evaporator - Ive wanted one for a long time...BUT the budget says I'm a Mossberg man...

 

[Dave McCracken]

The best tactical shotgun is that used by the best tactical shotgunner. IOW, it's the pianist, not the piano.

Stick with your 590. Use half of what money you'd spend on the Benelli on ammo, range fees and maybe even instruction. At a point where you're deadlier than anyone you know, then decide if you need a new toy.

Technology is a mighty poor substitute for expertise. So's a checkbook....

 

[curt]

oldpaladin,
I'm surprised to hear the M4 doesn't deal with reduced recoil loads well. I thought one of the benefits and reasons for the M4 was that it could eat anything without adjustment or resorting to pump mode.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I find the lack of capability to use reduced recoil rounds to be a disqualifier for the title of best combat shotgun.

 

[ACP]

Listen to Dave and stick with the Mossberg and lots of practice. Think about what you're likely to use the shotgun for --esconced home defense, firing one or two shots. You don't need a $1,000 shotgun to do that. You do need to be familiar and confident with your longarm and your interior home layout.

 

[HSMITH]

Dave is right on this one.

 

[El Tejon]

Brasshopper, listen to Master Chingchingkapow in Merryland as he balances on his snow shovel with one leg. Software reigns supreme.

Your gun fu trumps your weapon. You are the water, it is the rock. Now, answer me this, brasshopper, what is the sound of one .45 firing?

 

[BerettaNut92]

"Software trumps hardware. Go to skul." --KSFreeman

That said, I have a Benelli. Why? Not because it's tacticaller or anything, but I ENJOY it more. Enjoy more = shoot more. Shoot more = gooder.

 

[oldpaladin]

Folks,
The benefit of the M1014/M4S90's ARGO System is this: A three inch magnum has the same recoil as a 28 gauge, or a 5.56mm round... Why sacrifice what can loosely be termed "power," or the ability to move a large progectile at a faster pace, with recoil equal to/or less than LEO ammo? Think about it, please... The availability of LEO and 3" magnum ammo is essentially the same. Price is about the same. Performance is not, and the M1014/M4S90 takes advantage of this- to the advantage of the shooter, and the disadvantage of the target/perp/enemy... Which is more effective, if recoil is the same? Low recoil LEO loads, or maxed-out three inch magnums? The decision is, of course, up to you... I would, and did, opt for the biggest, most EFFECTIVE bang for the buck... If both shooters are equal in skill, and one has a much more powerful ammo, that is accurately, and rapidly placed, against your lower powered, shorter ranged, accurate, rapidly placed shots, AND the performance of shooters is same, WHO HAS THE ADVANTAGE?
As Will Shakespeare said, "Above all else, to thine ownself be true." If you're honest with youirself, the M1014/M4S90 is not short-changed by NOT using inferior ammo...

Carter, oldpaladin, out...

 

[HSMITH]

I don't really think it is gonna make a difference if the bad guy is hit with a 3" super dooper or a 2 3/4 low recoil, he is gonna be just as dead inside of 50 yards (beyond that I am running anyway). Recoil does not bother me in the least, my 870 puts shells on target nearly as fast as my autos do and I do not have to worry about any type of failure to cycle ever. I am one of the biggest autoloader fans on the board, but for defensive use I pick a solid simple pump, like the 870 or 590.

I see your point oldpalladin, but for me in my uses the math does not add up. I guess that is why there is more than one model made. If the Benelli is what you want I have no problem with that, as long as I can have my 870.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Carter, if we stood side by side and shot 5 perps each with our ammo of choice,I doubt any difference in power could be noted by us OR the perps.Yours would hit the ground first only if mine were taller.

Standard 2 3/4 oz ammo isn't exactly BBS from a Red Ryder Daisy.

One forensic pic I recall showed a fellow slumped on a couch after a close range head shot with a 20 gauge, load unknown. His head above the ears just wasn't there.

10 yard shots with my old duty 00 buck on gallon water jugs would leave me moist.

And I doubt that any fool taking an load of RR buck center mass will return much fire after.

 

[Sir Galahad]

The shotgun got its fearsome reputation for deadly power long before the first 3" Magnum appeared and LOOONGG before the word "tactical" ever appeared anywhere outside of a cavalry manual.

I agree with Dave 100%.

 

[Sir Galahad]

I recently saw a book full of pictures taken by a L.A. homicide detective from 1930 to 1950. Overall, a gory book, but interesting. There was a shotgun blast to the head in a murder. Shot was at about 15 feet. Head mostly gone. A suicide by shotgun. Nothing left of head but skull fragments, brain matter, and teeth on floor and on walls. Another murder with shotgun from about 9 feet. Whole left side of head gone (looked like a Picasso painting.) There were more, but all basically the same thing. Skull rapidly disassembled with no concern for order. All done with old 2 3/4" paper-hulled, non-buffered shotgun shells.

 

[oldpaladin]

Dear Dave and HSMITH,
By all means, to each his, or her own, choice of weapons... I'm just intent upon expanding the envelope of performance for my favorite of all CQB to 125 yard distance weapons... The right ammo can increase effective range, whether it's Hevi-shot 00 Buckshot, or 3" Brenneke slugs... All engineering is a compromise, and ever was thus... I've had the marvelous 870 and 590A (complete with all the bells and whistles). Both are more than capable of "taking out the trash," should the chore ever be necessary... Believe me, the Benelli M1014/M4S90 needs full power loads. With TWO gas pistons, low recoil/LEO loads ain't gonna feed the bulldog... True, beyond a 125 yards, these beauties will have the parabola of rainbow. But imagine the surprise of a BG as 1 3/8 oz. slug hits him in the chest! Attention getting for sure, and at the least, a broken rib or two...
I like fast, maximum, violent, uncompromising, cold bloodedly efficient, force- to be used upon BG's... No surrender, no quarter. None asked for, and none given... Guess this makes me a barbarian! Okay, I can live with that...

Regards and Respects,
Carter, oldpaladin, out...

 

[oldpaladin]

Sir Galahad,
You just have to admire a good idea becoming reality... The combat shotgun, in particular over the standard shotgun, is a truly fearsome weapon... BG's from WWI France to the jungles of Vietnam, learned that it was not just a weapon for "gentlemen." It was a good choice for CQB, where the Reaper calls the tune... Even today, few weapons can psychologically match the carnage of a few well placed loads of buckshot, or properly aimed slugs or sabots... Suicides by shotgun are messy- have seen results of one a long while back. He lost his head at a bad time (as if any time is a good time...). Yes, the human body is a frail thing, when confronted with multiple, small, rapidly moving, projectiles... We weren't made for that kind of abuse... Yes, the 2 3/4" paper hulled, non-buffered buckshot of old was effective at the range for which it was intended... Just as today's ammo is even more effective, than that of yesteryear... Ignoring the boon of technology is pointless- or worse, anti-survival... A better weapon and better ammo, means more efficiency- truly a force multiplier... Dave, I just want the ability to hit perps at a longer distance... As Homer Simpson might have said, "Distance is my friend..." Good man, Homer...

Carter, oldpaladin, out...

 

[LevelHead]

OK Here's my current thinking.

I appreciate and agree with the "spend money on training" aspect.

I agree that a simple pump is an excellent weapon. The problem I have is that my Mossberg at one time failed to eject regularly. Mossberg fixed it for free, but I have the nagging doubt to this day that it will fail. However irrational that fear is, it lowers my confidence in my defense shotgun. Not good. Also my Marinecoat is parkerized and tough as Hell, but it's got a plastic trigger assembly. I should have gotten the 590-A1, but alas I did not. Maybe I'll just trade up to that...

To me it seems a natural that for defense, quick follow up shots are a good thing. Semi-autos make quick follow up's easier. The ability of the Benelli M3 to go semi-auto or pump seems like an awesome idea to me. You'd get the phsycological impact (both for you and the BG) of "racking the action", and the quick follow ups of semi-auto. Of course I don't know if the action can be switched that easily - does anyone know?

My problem with semi-auto is reliability, though again the idea of a dual action model is appealing - won't cycle? Try to pump it. Every little edge helps.

I'm a believer in buying quality, since quality usually equates to reliability (usually). Hence my looking at the Benellis.

Thanks for all your input - I look forward to a continued discussion.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Don't get me wrong. One of the many things that sold me on the 1300s I have is that it can take 3" shells. I figure, hey, why not have that feature so I can use it? Sure expands one's choice of ammo. And it also opens options in some extreme case where you go looking for 2 3/4" shells and you need them BAD (SHTF? Civil unrest?) and guy says, "Nope, sold all the 2 3/4" clean out, but I do have some 3" left." Lots of folks have shotguns that take 2 3/4" but not 3" and that can work in your favor possibly. One of the reasons I love my .357 Magnum revolver so much is because it can take both .357 and .38 Special and .38 Special +P (which older .38s cannot +P.) That really opens up a lot of options, not to mention the boatloads of ammo options available for .357 alone (including Federal CastCore heavy lead loads.) To me, it just plain is a win-win situation. My .357 is THE handgun I would NEVER part with no matter what. Because no matter where you go, someone has .38 Special even if they don't have .357. Now, to me, the option of 3" shells is mighty encouraging even if I haven't shot them yet. Just because I know I CAN if I want or need to. And another option I really like with my Winchester Defenders is that they will function with the "mini-shells". That REALLY opens up my options. One has to admit, as far as versatility goes in a close-range weapon, the shotgun is IT. Being able to chamber more options is always better.

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

I have to agree with Skunk on this one. My preference is a semi-auto as I find them much more enjoyable to shoot. The more enjoyable the gun, the more I shoot it.

My confidence in my semi is just as high as my confidence in my Honda, which is extremely high to say the least...

 

[Dave McCracken]

Carter, my barbarian compadre....

Please continue in your quest for 125 yard CQB weaponry.Much of what we know now was done by shotgunners like thee.

I doubt I'll be testing Hevi Shot 00 in the near future, but a T&E of same would be nice to see here.

As for historical combat use of shotguns, we had dinner a few years back with a co worker of Wife's and the co worker's SO. On display in their house was a Civil War era Cavalryman's uniform, weapons and a daguerrotype or two. The weapons included a brass famed Confederate copy of a Navy Colt, and a double barrelled ML shotgun set up with maybe 16" barrels.

Historian Merle Miller at the time of the CW Centennial stated that probably 1/4 of the long arms used by Southron Cavalry were shotguns, mostly used by those who brought these with them from civilian life.

As for your choice of B guns, it's your money and life. However, I wouldn't own a "Serious" shotgun incapable of functioning with light loads. Or heavy ones, for that matter...

 

[El Tejon]

[El Tejon putting on robe and wooden sandals, lighting incense]

Young Skunkari, whatever sword you have, you have. You should have no faves as you possess the tacticality, regardless of the piece of metal in your paws. [gong sounds]

 

[Soap]

Carter,

The longest distance in my "poor college kid" apartment is 7 yards...so I'm not exactly stuffing my Benelli Nova full of 3.5 inchers or anything So the M4S90 benefits are moot to someone in my situation.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

*shrug* My mossberg cycles those "magical" 3 inch shells you spoke of quite well, and it functions with superlight trap loads, and less lethal ammunition, and anything else that's 12 gauge. it also has two extra rounds, capacity wise(iirc, civvie M4's only hold five in the tube), cost me a grand total of two hundred and forty dollars and wasn't given a poor review by people who's opinions i trust.

i'll stick with my american made pump action efficient user of money, thank you.

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Levelhead, you mentioned that your confidence in your 590 Marine Coat has dwindled. Before you go out and buy a new shotgun, do what most here have advised you to do. Shoot the heck out of it. If your confidence has not risen to the level that you would like, then ditch the 590 and purchase a shotgun that WILL.