Tempest 455
Member
Ditto on the K31.
Best value sniper rifle - probably milsurp
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The Sarge
Member
K31 or a modern day Savage.
TexasPatriot.308
Member
if you got a mil surp rifle for ammo that is not real common, after a while your sniper rifle better have a bayonet on it cause it will be a club then. I stick to rifles in .308 for the scenario your friend asks about. I own a variety of rifles that would fit what he is looking for and they are all in .308, a common round found anywhere.
TexasPatriot.308
Member
Savage is probably the most accurate rifles out there for the price.
4895
Member
The reason I brought the .338 Lapua, as an example, is that is a real sniper caliber/rifle. All the mil-surp rifles are only glorified clubs capable of, as some have said, inconsistent accuracy. I don't know about all of you, but I have yet to find ONE surplus rifle that fits my shoulder well and has a natural grip angle. When you add that most of those rifles will not scope easily you are already in a losing proposition. When that is taken into account, I stated a hunting rifle at Walmart would suffice for "a few hundred yards" as indicated by the OP and further more, as a prepper, he would be better off to go AR15 for an inexpesive, lightweight rifle with great accuracy out to 500 yards. There are tons of options for anyone who wants a "sniper rifle," just don't call a $500 hunting rifle a "sniper rifle." Bottom line is $400 plus for an old nostalgic WWII trench rifle that may shoot ok, has a horrible stock configuration, no place to mount a scope, and lots of surplus fmj corrosive ammo, or get a high power rifle with a spare parts kit, multi-position pistol grip stock, easy mount optic, and easy to find inexpensive, non-corrosive ammo that isn't older than your grandfather's corns. As a plus side, none of the "black weapons" are used by other nations to kill americans. Makes me feel better than that com-block junk that has been threatening and/or killing americans for generations.
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Kachok
Member
Savage= cheap, ugly, stupid reliable, and HIGHLY ACCURATE! As much as I wish Savage would pretty up their guns, I cannot justify spending twice as much on another rifle that won't shoot as well, just bought my sixth Savage yesterday (30-06) I'll try to give you a range report once I cook up some handloads. If it is anything like the last five I have shot expect tiny little groups.
If I wanted a super sniper setup on the cheap a Savae 110 or Axis is the only way to go, Tikka makes a hella good shooter too, but they have gone up over the last few years.
If I wanted a super sniper setup on the cheap a Savae 110 or Axis is the only way to go, Tikka makes a hella good shooter too, but they have gone up over the last few years.
looking at the articles myself of the 4 different configurations they show
the 8mm averages 2980 ft-lb
of 5 different configurations the .30-06 averages 2903 ft-lb
that is closer to 3% than 33%
That of course is muzzle energy. The .30-06 is going to have better ballistic coefficient and retain its energy further than the 8mm.
Then compare the Prvi 196gr. 8x57 listed at 2082 ft-lb...(highest energy round listed on Midway is S&B at 2922ft-lb)
to the .30-06 168 gr Prvi .30-06 listed at 2883 ft-lb (180gr. at 2913)
All in all the two rounds are pretty close...there certainly is no 33% difference in them. In over the shelf ammo...you are going to find the .30-06 to be more powerful though...Hornady Superformance 165gr. SST is 3209 ft-lb
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Tempest 455
Member
Swiss K31 1,000 yards w/ iron sights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ-Lcvyrifw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1HJP3QQv1w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ-Lcvyrifw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1HJP3QQv1w
TexasPatriot.308
Member
the .338 Lapua is a great round. the military will have plenty of ammo and trained snipers used to the recoil. your average Joe waiting on the SHTF scenario will not be prepred to use this caliber and doubt he will have access to enough ammo.
For a poor college student contemplating doomsday, a used Marlin 60 with a decent scope is probably the best idea. Who really thinks they will have the need to make a 1000 (or even 500) yard shot if/when society as we know it collapses? Much higher likelihood (still far-fetched) of needing to repel a small group of thugs in the neighborhood or needing to strike out on foot for some distance in search of food, water, and isolation. Get the Marlin and a few bricks of ammo, and practice, practice, practice. Rapid head shots at 50 yards will win the day. Also get some running shoes, and again practice, practice, practice...
Ignition Override
Member
Has your friend read about the actual Finnish Mosin-Nagants? They are reported to be the best MNs. A very nice example might cost more than a similar Swiss K-31.
Both rifles certainly have plenty of power, though extra Swiss GP-11 ammo would be even more difficult to locate if we lost our electrical, food, gas supply systems for a long time ("WROL").
Whichever type rifle helps somebody obtain vital pharmaceuticals and fresh fruit/veggies (scurvy) would be my choice. Meat won't prevent scurvy etc.
There is a solid reason why the British were called "Limeys".
Both rifles certainly have plenty of power, though extra Swiss GP-11 ammo would be even more difficult to locate if we lost our electrical, food, gas supply systems for a long time ("WROL").
Whichever type rifle helps somebody obtain vital pharmaceuticals and fresh fruit/veggies (scurvy) would be my choice. Meat won't prevent scurvy etc.
There is a solid reason why the British were called "Limeys".
I agree with the K31. I've never actually used one yet but I've got a nice one in the mail as I speak.
I've done some reading on reloading, and I understand that cases can be resized from fairly common .284 Winchester or 7.62x54mmR Russian. Coupled with the fact that these utilize .308 bullets (which are in very high supply, since 7.62x51 NATO is a standard-issue round for forces all around the globe) and you have a very flexible cartridge that lends itself to reloading, which I imagine your friend might undertake when the armament factories stop churning out bullets
I don't know what Wikipedia you're reading, but the 7.92x57 Mauser round is not 33% stronger than the .30-06. Both pages indicate that each round is capable of up to around 4,000 joules, but typically the aught-six is the stronger of the two. It has a higher case capacity, retains the ability to use similar-weight bullets, and on average has higher velocity than the Mauser round. The .30-06 is in fact larger, as its European designation immediately demonstrates: 7.62x63mm.
I've done some reading on reloading, and I understand that cases can be resized from fairly common .284 Winchester or 7.62x54mmR Russian. Coupled with the fact that these utilize .308 bullets (which are in very high supply, since 7.62x51 NATO is a standard-issue round for forces all around the globe) and you have a very flexible cartridge that lends itself to reloading, which I imagine your friend might undertake when the armament factories stop churning out bullets
WardenWolf said:
I don't know what Wikipedia you're reading, but the 7.92x57 Mauser round is not 33% stronger than the .30-06. Both pages indicate that each round is capable of up to around 4,000 joules, but typically the aught-six is the stronger of the two. It has a higher case capacity, retains the ability to use similar-weight bullets, and on average has higher velocity than the Mauser round. The .30-06 is in fact larger, as its European designation immediately demonstrates: 7.62x63mm.
denton
Member
We're probably carrying the discussion far beyond what the OP had in mind. The original question was what inexpensive rifle to get for all-around use. As I said earlier, I agree that a good new or used hunting rifle is a better bet than a milsurp. A good used Savage is probably one of the best choices. I also think this is the wrong question.
If the economy and social order collapse, there isn't any real need to be able to hit targets at 500 yards. Your adversaries are much more likely to be in the same room with you, and a rifle isn't the right tool. You aren't going to go deer hunting to feed your family.
I would stay the heck away from the 30-06 or 308 (both outstanding hunting cartridges). They will do what the OP asked, but what the OP asked isn't what is going to be useful.
A few days worth of food, an extra roll of TP and a clean change of clothes are sure to be useful. I'd start with that.
Once that requirement is met, then, if the question is, what inexpensive firearms are most useful in socially disturbed situations, I think the answers are a used inexpensive shotgun, a 22 bolt action rifle [digests everything from 22 Short to 22 LR Velocitors], a 38 Spl snubby revolver, and maybe something like the Savage bolt action 30-30 [$175] in about that order.
If the economy and social order collapse, there isn't any real need to be able to hit targets at 500 yards. Your adversaries are much more likely to be in the same room with you, and a rifle isn't the right tool. You aren't going to go deer hunting to feed your family.
I would stay the heck away from the 30-06 or 308 (both outstanding hunting cartridges). They will do what the OP asked, but what the OP asked isn't what is going to be useful.
A few days worth of food, an extra roll of TP and a clean change of clothes are sure to be useful. I'd start with that.
Once that requirement is met, then, if the question is, what inexpensive firearms are most useful in socially disturbed situations, I think the answers are a used inexpensive shotgun, a 22 bolt action rifle [digests everything from 22 Short to 22 LR Velocitors], a 38 Spl snubby revolver, and maybe something like the Savage bolt action 30-30 [$175] in about that order.
dprice3844444
member
35 Whelen
Member
I totally agree with a hunting type bolt rifle chambered for a common cartridge such as the .308. The problem with most of these rifles is that without a scope, they're absolutely worthless. In other words when (not if) your scope gets damaged (you know, you whack one of those giant turrets on something), you have no way to aim the rifle.
That's the nice thing about milsurps, they ALL have sights.
Regarding ammo availability in an EOTWAWKI, ALL ammo is going to be difficult, at best, to find. It's not like you can just fire up the ol' I-Phone, place an ammo order with Wideners, then wait under a tree for the UPS man.
K-31 ammo is plentiful though not just everyone sells it, and for it's quality is really quite cheap. A sealed case of 480 rounds runs about $250 delivered.
35W
That's the nice thing about milsurps, they ALL have sights.
Regarding ammo availability in an EOTWAWKI, ALL ammo is going to be difficult, at best, to find. It's not like you can just fire up the ol' I-Phone, place an ammo order with Wideners, then wait under a tree for the UPS man.
K-31 ammo is plentiful though not just everyone sells it, and for it's quality is really quite cheap. A sealed case of 480 rounds runs about $250 delivered.
35W
TexasPatriot.308
Member
I keep hearing about Mosins, I am 58, been hunting hogs for 30 years here in Texas and for the person that said forgt about 30-06 and .308, I know from long years of experiene, these 2 calibrs especially the .308 are the perfect choice. but then again i aint a novice, just a long time experienced hog hunter.
denton
Member
I have no quarrel with the 30-06 and 308 for hogs. In fact, I think they are outstanding hunting cartridges.
My point was that in a socially disturbed situation, the OP isn't going hunting, and he doesn't need to defend himself against people 500 yards away. So the question that we have been trying to answer is the wrong question.
The suggestion to buy a Mosin to fulfill the fantasy is probably even a better answer than mine. Spend the $100 and be done with it.
4895
Member
I'm sticking with the AR-15 style platform. Ammo is cheap, there are tons of optics for them, and the iron sights are quite adequate for long range shooting. I have seen Bushmasters on sale for about $600 lately, or buy a lower receiver at a lgs, and then mail order the rest of the rifle when money comes in. Tons of videos on YOUTUBE on how to assemble. You won't regret owning or having access to a fine piece of low-recoil hardware that is capable of hunting large game as well as personal protection at home or afield. A parts kit is a must and very inexpensive, and you can buy surplus army ammo right now for cheap $$, like $140 for 400 rounds with the ammo can! A couple mags of soft point for hunting wouldn't hurt either. That would be all I would take if I was really concerned about EOTWAWKI. Light and portable with accuracy and reliability to boot.
El General
Member
If the SHTF, and you are talking 1000 yard shots, you are doing it wrong.
Buy a Mosin with iron sights and a few thousand rounds of ammo and shoot it until you are a sniper.
Buy a Mosin with iron sights and a few thousand rounds of ammo and shoot it until you are a sniper.
Zak Smith
Member
Some thoughts--
Off the bat, focusing on and spending money on a "tool" that is useful in a much, much more remote possibility than many more common risks is a failure in mindset. It is a fantasy unless there is an actual application that is realized. I'll leave that there since this is a rifle question.
The original question is about a rifle, not necessarily a sniper rifle. A regular rifle is a very useful tool. Even at 3 MOA accuracy. A rifle can do a lot of things, including to kill game for food and to defend a homestead. Rifles have been doing that, even 3 and 4 MOA rifles, for over a hundred years. Rifles are good. The mil-surp rifles on the market (K98, M48, K31, M44, etc) can do this. Realistically, any rifle made in the last century can do this.
If you want to talk about precision and long-range rifles, which is a subclass of a "sniper rifle", then you get into a set of requirements that is beyond your run of the mill pedestrian rifle. None of the mil-surps are appropriate for precision/long-range applications. Much has been written about these rifles, and how to get into the class cheaply. I wrote my recommendations here. In short, look at a Remington or Savage and get it in .308.
Off the bat, focusing on and spending money on a "tool" that is useful in a much, much more remote possibility than many more common risks is a failure in mindset. It is a fantasy unless there is an actual application that is realized. I'll leave that there since this is a rifle question.
The original question is about a rifle, not necessarily a sniper rifle. A regular rifle is a very useful tool. Even at 3 MOA accuracy. A rifle can do a lot of things, including to kill game for food and to defend a homestead. Rifles have been doing that, even 3 and 4 MOA rifles, for over a hundred years. Rifles are good. The mil-surp rifles on the market (K98, M48, K31, M44, etc) can do this. Realistically, any rifle made in the last century can do this.
If you want to talk about precision and long-range rifles, which is a subclass of a "sniper rifle", then you get into a set of requirements that is beyond your run of the mill pedestrian rifle. None of the mil-surps are appropriate for precision/long-range applications. Much has been written about these rifles, and how to get into the class cheaply. I wrote my recommendations here. In short, look at a Remington or Savage and get it in .308.
Archaic
Member
Only read the OP, so I may be beating a dead horse - ANY bolt action rifle capable of harvesting a deer with a decent scope on it should be more than serviceable (which to me means hitting a pie plate) out to 400 yards or so. The thing about so-called 'sniper rifles' is that they are only sniper rifles in the hands of an actual sniper.
funny thing is i just read your article when searching for horus reticle earlier today, nice one and thanks (offtopic, i am sold on horus reticles, are they only on horus scopes? i'd hope to find something 3-12x32/40 with horus reticles, but they only sell higher powered and 50mm)
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