better home defense

[EvilGenius]

I do agree with this.

The only time I could see it being ok if you live by yourself in the middle of no where, have several mags on the nightstand and good at plaster and grout work.

 

[snake eater 332]

I'm a LEO with 15+ years experience and 9+ years served in the military.

My personal recommendation for a primary home defense weapon would be a 12 gauge pump shotgun with as short a barrel that is legally possible and that your comfortable with. A shotgun is very versatile, with a large selection of ammo available for various purposes, and is quite devastating in close quarters.

My personal favorite is my 14 inch barreled 12 gauge Mossberg 590A1 shotgun with ghost ring sights, a Hogue Youth stock, a Surefire 621FGA Forend Weaponlight, Blackhawk front sling adapter, Specter Gear 3-point tactical sling, and 3GunGear.com 7-Shell Side Saddle, which has a nylon side saddle with elasticized shell holders backed with velcro that affixes to a base on the shotgun receiver. This side saddle carrier allows single-hand removal and attachment so that additional side saddle carriers can be carried on tactical vests or plate carriers and your ammo source can be easily replenished. This shotgun has an overall length (OAL) of 35 inches, which is a nice compact size for manuevering inside a house or building. This is my primary HD long gun.




I also strongly believe that a light source is MANDATORY for any HD weapon so as to positively identify your potential target! Lest it be a family member, such as a teen son/daughter sneaking back into the house...that could be extremely tragic. A weapon-mounted light could also be used offensively to blind an offender, allowing you to gain the tactical advantage in a dynamic critical incident.

As previously stated, a dog is an outstanding early warning system. Also, an alarm system and good locks on your doors and windows aid in making your home/business a less attractive target of opportunity.

When considering Home Defense, the most important things to consider are:

1) having a well thought out HD plan, AND
2) training and become intimately familiar with whatever HD firearm you choose.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Big no to the slide-fire stock....a quick double or triple tap on semi with the AR will suffice.

I don't know who in their right mind would use a slide-fire stock on a HD rifle. For a range toy? Maybe. To defend myself? Nope.

I much prefer controlled and accurate fire out of a semi AR.

 

[788Ham]

Kendal Black,

On post #41, you stated,"Repeater holding more shots....." Using a 12 ga. shotgun for HD is a very good idea, however, have you ever seen what a shotgun does to the human anatomy? Wouldn't 1 or 2 rounds at the most be sufficient for your purpose? I mean my God, are you wanting the perp to be quartered too, or "strung out" across the living room?

 

[EvilGenius]

Kendal Black,

On post #41, you stated,"Repeater holding more shots....." Using a 12 ga. shotgun for HD is a very good idea, however, have you ever seen what a shotgun does to the human anatomy? Wouldn't 1 or 2 rounds at the most be sufficient for your purpose? I mean my God, are you wanting the perp to be quartered too, or "strung out" across the living room?

Despite all the training one can have. It's highly unlikely that anyone has a vast amount o experience shooting at a live human bein in their house. I'd say it's a lot easier than most are wiling to admit to miss entirely.

Better to have a few for back up.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I also strongly believe that a light source is MANDATORY for any HD weapon so as to positively identify your potential target! Lest it be a family member, such as a teen son/daughter sneaking back into the house...that could be extremely tragic. A weapon-mounted light could also be used offensively to blind an offender, allowing you to gain the tactical advantage in a dynamic critical incident.

Exactly.

Arguing against having a light is silly since you don't have to turn it on if you don't want to.

Better to have it and not need it.

 

[zfk55]

If you can't do it in 6 or 8 shots, you're probably in more troouble than you think.

This one. I was able to get a virtually unused Mossberg special edition from the Quebec Police Dept. some years ago, and it's labeled as such on the receiver.
The buttpad is extremely comfortable when shooting.

 

[gunguy0829]

I like the big dog, I have two, and thats chance one, 12 gauge pump, the sound of chambering a round is universal for "Get Out", chance two, the distance the intruder has between him and me is time to think, may be a split second but its time to think thats strike 3 and your out, 00 buck center of the chest. Dont worry about recoil your adrenalin will be pumping so hard you wont even feel the shot gun going off. In a situation like that most peolpe will forget the basics of shooting, the stress of the situation is a lot more than they play on hollywood, you dont need to think with a shot gun just point and pull the trigger. If you use a pistol you need to be able to practice drawing and aiming and shooting under stress monthly at least, and no matter what you use know whats behind your target and never ever hesitate, you hesitate and the intruder is shooting you with your own gun,
snake eater is right you need to practice a HD plan, if that means practicing clearing your house when no one is home empty chamber so be it. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

 

[huntsman]

Shotgun is better then a rifle
SXS is better than a pump
Pistol is better than revolver
Metal is better than plastic
IMHO

Anything else?

 

[Matthew Courtney]

Kendal Black,

On post #41, you stated,"Repeater holding more shots....." Using a 12 ga. shotgun for HD is a very good idea, however, have you ever seen what a shotgun does to the human anatomy? Wouldn't 1 or 2 rounds at the most be sufficient for your purpose? I mean my God, are you wanting the perp to be quartered too, or "strung out" across the living room?

Plus, Bad guys never work in groups of 3 or more and good guys never miss! Didn't you get the re-write of the script?

 

[gym]

I didn't get the "bowl" analogy. Next time you have home invasion let me know.This idea of racking the shotgun is not too smart and is highly over rated. Some crooks don't hear or care. They also may have their own shotgun which is now being fired at where the sound came from. Plus what if it short cycles or a round jams, the gun should be ready with the safety now off, if someone is in your home. It's not a hearing test. it's as bad as a movie when everyone cocks their gun right before they are going to shoot.The only thing you should be concerned with is "you" knowing where everyone is, not them knowing where you are. Plus you just gave up a round, as one should have been chambered, and once you make that noise you better be ready to fire and not load another round in, especially if you have a gun that takes olnly 4+1 rounds. Round chambered safety on, if you are using a shotgun, or get a 930spx or a Benelli m4 gas operated gun. Something that can stay on target instead of push you accross the room. It's different when you are running or crouchingand have to pump each time. Auto shotgus especially Gas assist are a much better choice, that's why most military and police are switching over.

 

[John R.]

I own many gun, servel loaded and handy but I pick up my 870 when alerted by my Goat gaurd Dogs. I keep it loaded with low brass #9 shot or my k-` frame 357 loaded with .38 cal.bird shot. I kill geese and turkey at close range with a head shot with the #9's in the 12 ga. I have shot wood, old phone books and game with mant different ga's and cal's and I'll stick with the small shot which I think is my best bet for home protection.
I am a hunter and take game but Im not a killer.I never have to track a wounded animal.I shoot to kill, not to wound. If I can't get the head or neck shot I'm looking for I don't squeez the triger and I especilly don't won't to see a wounded person floping around in my home with some bad placed .45 cal. holes punched in him.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I own many gun, servel loaded and handy but I pick up my 870 when alerted by my Goat gaurd Dogs. I keep it loaded with low brass #9 shot or my k-` frame 357 loaded with .38 cal.bird shot. I kill geese and turkey at close range with a head shot with the #9's in the 12 ga. I have shot wood, old phone books and game with mant different ga's and cal's and I'll stick with the small shot which I think is my best bet for home protection.
I am a hunter and take game but Im not a killer.I never have to track a wounded animal.I shoot to kill, not to wound. If I can't get the head or neck shot I'm looking for I don't squeez the triger and I especilly don't won't to see a wounded person floping around in my home with some bad placed .45 cal. holes punched in him.

You are going to see some person flopping around with several hundred #9 shot in him.....birds and humans require different loads to put down "humanely"

 

[SAGERAT]

12 gauge pump shotgun (or 20 for a small recoil sensitive person) loaded with birdshot, #8 or 7 1/2. If your assailant is close enough to justify shooting, you'll blow a 6" hole clear through him but the birdshot will pose much less danger to someone in an adjacent room than any bullet. Plus it's a whole lot easier to hit your target with a shotgun.

 

[Kendal Black]

Kendal Black,

On post #41, you stated,"Repeater holding more shots....." Using a 12 ga. shotgun for HD is a very good idea, however, have you ever seen what a shotgun does to the human anatomy? Wouldn't 1 or 2 rounds at the most be sufficient for your purpose? I mean my God, are you wanting the perp to be quartered too, or "strung out" across the living room?

Sometimes bad guys brings friends. Sometimes good guys miss. These factors incline me to the view that having more shots is a good idea.

It's an old question: How many opponents are you going to prepare for? It may be that three is the reasonable maximum for training scenarios, since any beyond that and you are going to need extra luck, not more skill...

I have a nice old SxS I enjoy very much, afield. I like the simple operation, near total reliability and the good balance and pointing and swinging qualities. It would be a heck of a defense gun until its two shots are expended and I need to execute a cowboy reload.

I've said elsewhere that a good double barrel, hammerless type, is the optimum weapon for the mechanically disinclined person. We all know someone for whom any machinery is likely to snarl up when he touches it, or she touches it. This sort of person will short stroke the pump, push a shell into the magazine backwards, forget a round needs to be chambered for an autoloader to work, etcetera.

With the double: To load, place a shell in each hole. You cannot put it in backwards. To unload and show clear, make sure there is nothing in the holes. To check for barrel obstructions, hinge the gun open and take a look from the breech end. So I think there is a place for the double gun in defense, in certain hands. You just hope a home invasion by multiple thugs isn't the scenario.

Here is an engaging video in which Clint Smith suggests that all kinds of shotguns are usable for defense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw

 

[allaroundhunter]

12 gauge pump shotgun (or 20 for a small recoil sensitive person) loaded with birdshot, #8 or 7 1/2. If your assailant is close enough to justify shooting, you'll blow a 6" hole clear through him but the birdshot will pose much less danger to someone in an adjacent room than any bullet. Plus it's a whole lot easier to hit your target with a shotgun.

A person doesn't have to be 10 feet away from you in your home before you are allowed to shoot. I have been peppered by #7 1/2 shot from 25 yards and it didn't even break skin. I would NEVER load a defensive shotgun with birdshot.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

12 gauge pump shotgun (or 20 for a small recoil sensitive person) loaded with birdshot, #8 or 7 1/2. If your assailant is close enough to justify shooting, you'll blow a 6" hole clear through him

Doubtful. #7 1/2 birdshot won't even penetrate 6" of bare gelatin with no clothes, bones, or anything else.. The average male torso is around 8-9" deep and I'm not aware of any skinless, boneless torsos out there, so even in a best case circumstance where your attacker is naked, very close, and doesn't have anything blocking his torso, you aren't likely to be blowing holes through him.

And in my open choke Remington, trap loads spread a little more than 1" per yard - so a 6" pattern on the target means the target is around 15' away (i.e. 5 feet further away than jello in the above test).

 

[gunguy0829]

44 mag with 300 grain jhp is the back up, if he doesnt drop with that, he must be superman

 

[zfk55]

Quote:
An Ar if you can get to it, with a slide fire stock, practice a lot, being able to lay a burst into a group of would be home invaders, will send them out of town fast

Worst advice ever. Something like this hampers reliability of the weapon and just leads to more problems. Don't add stupid gimmicky stuff to a weapon that will only decrease its effectiveness.
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Not to mention the fact that anyone using a rifle caliber in a house is very likely to go through a few walls and hit neighbors or anything on the other side. Want to roll the dice with an AR as a home defence weapon? They don't come with "get out of jail free" cards.

 

[gym]

By the way, cameras help a lot, two or three good ones, no one wants to be on video, and you don't keep the recorder in the house, it brodcasts to an off premisis server, so here isn't a way to get the disc as there is no disc.If you choose to yu can wire a hard drive, wi-fi , into your network and check on your house anytime, which more of us should do now that the technology is less than buying an inexpensive pistol. You never know who is eyeballing your house.

 

[benEzra]

Not to mention the fact that anyone using a rifle caliber in a house is very likely to go through a few walls and hit neighbors or anything on the other side. Want to roll the dice with an AR as a home defence weapon? They don't come with "get out of jail free" cards.

.223 Remington JHP and SP in the 50-60 grain range typically penetrates less in drywall than 12-gauge 00 buckshot, 9mm JHP, and .45 ACP JHP. Typical loads will penetrate two or three interior walls (as will buckshot), and some loads are fragmenting by the time they exit the first wall.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

I do strongly disagree with bump-fire-gimmick stocks for serious purposes, but .223 Remington with appropriate loads is a perfectly fine alternative to 12-gauge. A civilian-length .223 carbine in the 16" to 18" range isn't any louder than an 18.5" 12-gauge, either, unless fitted with a brake.

I do think a light is a good idea on any defensive long gun, and if using a rifle-caliber carbine, a flash suppressor is also a good idea.

 

[mortablunt]

.223 Remington JHP and SP in the 50-60 grain range typically penetrates less in drywall than 12-gauge 00 buckshot, 9mm JHP, and .45 ACP JHP. Typical loads will penetrate two or three interior walls (as will buckshot), and some loads are fragmenting by the time they exit the first wall.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

I do strongly disagree with bump-fire-gimmick stocks for serious purposes, but .223 Remington with appropriate loads is a perfectly fine alternative to 12-gauge. A civilian-length .223 carbine in the 16" to 18" range isn't any louder than an 18.5" 12-gauge, either, unless fitted with a brake.

I do think a light is a good idea on any defensive long gun, and if using a rifle-caliber carbine, a flash suppressor is also a good idea.

The problem with that is that those low penetration loadings are varmint loads and not meant to kill humans. If your goal is to cause incapacitation level injuries, then you ought to use the same sort of rounds you'd use on something of the same weight class as a human such as a deer. Do you hunt deer with a varmint load? No. Why fight similarly heavy and constructed people with varmint loads then? My worry about using person I shoot with a varmint load in a defense situation is that they will not be injured enough to be permanently dissuaded from continuing. Remember, these Hornady Vmax 55 grain loadings are stopping in 8 inches of gel, which is 25% than the FBI recommends as a safe minimum. What about arms, bones, funny angles, and other assorted vagaries?

The risk of overpenetration is unavoidable if you have a gun-ammo combination that can kill someone suitably for defensive purposes. You're not doing yourself any favors by using inappropriate rounds in the hope that maybe you won't accidentally shoot the wrong person in a completely by blind luck unfortunate accident. Also, using birdshot has bad legal potential. Any juror or lawyer with the least bit of hunting smarts will know that birdshot is designed for killing pheasants and not robbers. Theerefore, by using lethal force by firearm, yet not using sufficient lethal force to be effective, you're saying that you shot someone without being duly ready to put enough effort into stopping the threat to warrant lethal force. You're better off with a good sharp KABAR than birdshot. Come to think of it, at HD ranges, a knife wouldn't at all be a bad idea, assuming you're practiced.

At the risk of drawing a chorus of hate here, but you might want to look at paratrooper type AK. It doesn't come out much further than a handgun, but it's easier to use, has a bigger mag, and has a more damaging round. As a guarantee, any rifle round is going to seriously overpenetrate if it is a JHP, JSP, FMJ, or TMJ. Any that doesn't do that is either a varmint load, or a caliber such as 22lr or smaller, neither of which should not be used when rapid incapacitation is essential.

If you can't think of anything to do, just get yourself a pump or semiautomatic shotgun.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Morta, the difference with rifle rounds is that they do not need as much penetration in a human body to cause lethal damage. A rifle round dumps a significantly larger amount of energy than a pistol round and 8" is plenty deep to incapacitate an attacker, vital organs are much less that 8" underneath the skin.

A v-max round is definitely appropriate for HD, and, IMO, better suited for it than most any other round. It will incapacitate an attacker better than a pistol round, and will also pose less of a danger of over penetration in the case of a miss.

Morta, what type of round do you think special weapons teams use in their ARs? Here's a hint, it isn't a Nosler Partition (what I use on deer).

 

[mortablunt]

^ I'm going by what is recommended by people such as Dr. Martin Fackler, who have made careers out of studying terminal balistics. I distrust varmint loads for anti-human duty bbecause if they fragment pretty much immediately upon hitting the body, then what about reaching the deeper organs in a big chunk? What about getting through bones?

SWAT teams user either FMJ or JHP. Our military uses FMJ as per Hague.

Not all JHP rounds are varmint loads. Varmint loads are designed to deal with small animals. There's even a wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varmint_hunting Notice how all those animals are quite small?

 

[allaroundhunter]

^ I'm going by what is recommended by people such as Dr. Martin Fackler, who have made careers out of studying terminal balistics. I distrust varmint loads for anti-human duty bbecause if they fragment pretty much immediately upon hitting the body, then what about reaching the deeper organs in a big chunk? What about getting through bones?

SWAT teams user either FMJ or JHP. Our military uses FMJ as per Hague.

Not all JHP rounds are varmint loads. Varmint loads are designed to deal with small animals. There's even a wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varmint_hunting Notice how all those animals are quite small?

Okay, after this post I'm done discussing this.

First off, not many, if any LEO's load their patrol rifles (or entry rifles) with FMJ ammo.

Secondly, just how deep in a body do you think organs are? You don't need to penetrate 12" to get to them.

Obviously you have seen what a varmint round will do to a prairie dog, pink mist right?Yea, that is what it will do to an attackers vitals. The fragments even mean that you are likely to hit multiple vital organs with a single shot to center mass. Bones will not do much to stop the round, it might deflect some of the bullet or make it fragment further, but it will still be a good hit (if we're talking ribs).

Regardless of what "Dr. Fackler" says, my AR will stay loaded with either a 60 gr V-Max, or Hornady TAP, not FMJ. Penetration isn't the only killer with rifle rounds....

After looking into Mr. Fackler's work, he is actually one of the first to demonstrate that fragmentation is the most effective way to inflict wounds. He did NOT recommend the use of FMJ (although the military is bound to).