Big bore lever rifles?

[chaim]

All the talk about big bore lever guns is making me want one. I love lever rifles. However, I'm not immune to recoil. How does 45-70 in a Marlin lever gun recoil compared to say a bolt rifle in 30-06?

Also, do most "pistol ammo" only ranges allow 45-70 or would it be a rifle range only commodity? What is the usual price range for the ammo?

For the "semi-recoil sensitive" person who wants to also be able to shoot in indoor ranges would I be better off with one of the .454Casull Rossi's? That way I could get some real power out of the .454 ammo when I want to (out of a long gun .454 would easily give more than adequate bear protection when camping) and in a lever gun it shouldn't be too bad (I'm sure the recoil isn't even comparable to 30-30 in a similar gun). Would a .454 lever rifle be able to shoot .45LC like the revolvers can? If so, 50 rounds of .45LC for about $15 (for the cheapest stuff) is still cheaper than $9-10 for 20 rounds for cheap 30-30 or $20-25 for 50 .454s.

 

[Pumpkinheaver]

The 45-70 will slap you around as much as you let it. With 300 gr loads from win, rem, fed there is not much to worry about as far as recoil is concerned. It's when you get into heavy handloads that recoil becomes a problem, lets say a 405sp at 2000fps, it will let you know you fired it!!!!!

 

[Atticus]

300grn = 2.75" 12 gauge
405grn > .375 H&H

One of the old fella's I know (who loves the shoulder thumpers) lost a filling shooting his .45-70.

A good recoil pad is a must have for the heavy loads.

 

[Joe Demko]

Shot a Marlin .45-70 on Sunday that my dad won recently in a raffle. It's stainless w/ Magna-port-esque vents near the muzzle. Fired a few rounds of Remington factory ammo. Didn't look too close at the box. Some kind of semi-jacketed hollowpoints. Recoil was similar to 12 gauge shotgun, IMO. Lever guns of the Marlin/Winchester pattern seem, to kick harder to me than guns of similar weight and caliber in other patterns. Maybe it is just the way my frame interfaces with the stocks.

 

[Futo Inu]

Well, chaim, I'm pretty sure that the levers in .454 casull will also shoot .45LC, so yes, that is a nice feature, as well as shared ammo with a revolver. But does Rossi make one of these? Maybe they do, but I thought only Puma had the .454 casull levergun. In any event, that's an appealing route IF you have a revolver of same chambering. But if you don't - someone correct me if I'm wrong - one advantage of a 45-70 lever over a 454 casull, besides a slightly larger bore, is that the cartridge in general generates less chamber pressure, and therefore is not always pushing the limits of the gun in order to get the more robust loads. Same for .444 Marlin. And, as mentioned, you can find 45-70 in many different loadings, from easy and light all the way up. But a 45 LC / 454 casull can fit more rounds in the tube, so it's not a real easy choice, is it? I think it would come down to desire for unity of ammo, and whether you want to be able to have 450-500 grainers (don't think .454 casull can be loaded this heavy).

 

[treeprof]

Don't underestimate the potential for big bore pistol cartridges to generate stiff recoil. In terms of raw ft lbs of recoil energy, a full power .44 mag in .240 gr is very similar to a std .30-30 load (10-11 ft lbs) in a 7-7.5 lb rifle. A .454 Casull will be significantly more than that. There're some recoil calculators on the web - you should run some #'s and compare.

Personally, I question the long-term durability of a .454 lever gun. The .454 generates abt 62,000 psi chamber pressure, compared to the mid-30,000's for a .44 mag and heavy .45-70 loads, and low 40,000's for a .30-30.

I had a Marlin GG in .45-70 that I ended up selling after some shoulder surgery. In std loads, recoil is on par with a .30-06 in terms of ft lbs (upper teens to low 20's), but the heaver bullets have a different "feel" to them. In a heavy loading like a Garrett, well, that's a different beast altogether. And, I can't imagine a they'd let you shoot a .45-70 on a pistol-only range. Some even ban pistol rounds from a rifle/carbine.

 

[Keith]

I'm on my second Marlin Guide Gun, and I just love them! Both of mine have been the ported models and recoil (with standard loads) is actually less than a 30-06.

HOWEVER, if I lived where you do, I'd get one of these Puma's in .454. The rifle is a bit lighter, the ammo cheaper and from what I hear the rifle is made well - a bit stiff, but it smooths up nicely with usage. I'd have no fears about whacking a black bear or deer with a .454 launched from a rifle.


Keith

 

[Black Snowman]

Who all makes .454 lever guns? (not to hijack the tread) So far we've heard Rossi and Puma, any of the big brands make one?

 

[Futo Inu]

treeprof - I'm curious - was your shoulder surgery a result of a lifetime of (or for that matter, a single incident of), shooting?

 

[Keith]

Puma was (sort of) Rossi.

A company called Legacy (something) bought the rights and tooling to the Rossi version of the Winchester Model 92. People have been asking for a lever gun in .454 for years, but none of these big companies would get off their behinds and design one.
So, these Legacy folks looked around and decided the 92 was the right action to build one on. Rossi was making some pretty crappy rifles and their 92 was losing money - and rightfully so!
This group (legacy) took the tooling, hired some decent people, put in some sort of quality control (which Rossi never had) and began making 92's (the Puma) in .454.
They are not associated with Rossi, but just bought the rights and tooling to a Rossi gun.

And by all accounts, this a great little rifle at a great price.

Keith

 

[treeprof]

FI - Cumulative damage from a lot of things at the time of surgery. Shooting was not a contributing factor, but the pre-surgery condition and the surgery itself did limit my ability to handle a lot of recoil. Them cutting off a chunk of my collar bone, among other things, means that it doesn't grate against other stuff in the joint and tear up cartilage anymore, but the shoulder is still weakened and prone to soreness, even 2.5 yrs later.

I really liked my Guide Gun, but the GG didn't serve any general purpose for me, and not being able to even think abt shooting the big heavy loads for it anymore detracted from any specific use I had in mind. I really like the .45-70, tho. I have a real soft spot for lever guns and old cartridges.

Legacy Sports Int'l is the company re the Puma:

http://www.legacysports.com

 

[chaim]

But does Rossi make one of these? Maybe they do, but I thought only Puma had the .454 casull levergun.

Rossi=Puma, depends upon when it was made.

I was under the impression that Rossi was the current designation. They bought out Puma, another Brazillian company with a worse quality reputation (so I was told). They cleaned it up a bit and sold it eventually under their own name.

I had seen some Legacy International, but I was under the impression they simply were a distributor. I didn't know they bought the works and were selling as Puma again. Learn something new everyday.





OK, someone said that .44mag out of a lever carbine barrel can get 30-30 energy levels. 30-30 energy levels with a larger bullet that is more likely to hit something vital seems like a good combination. For eastern Black Bear (not hunting, but for camp defense) should that be acceptable then? If so this should be perfect. The .44mag out of a carbine will be a pussycat, it will be allowed at most (if not all) the pistol ranges around here, the ammo is much cheaper than 30-30, all of which add up to a lot of practice as well. Hey I could load it down with .44spl to limit overpenatration and the same gun could even double in a home defense role (instead of a .357mag lever gun). Hmm....

 

[treeprof]

Yeah, a good .44 mag load can get pretty close to a .30-30 in terms of enegry, plus the added benefit of a bigger hole and heavier bullet. And, you have a much better selection of bullet types (JSP, JHP, hard cast, etc.) in 44 factory loads. Recoil-wise, I find both pretty easy to shoot in my Marlins.

 

[Matt G]

Agree that recoil for a big bore is very much a function of the ammo.

The best example of this is in the Marlin 1895's of all flavors. It's able to take the romp'em stomp'em power of the heaviest stuff that Garrett and Buffalo Bore can turn out, yet there's a whole lot of stuff turned out for cowboy action shooting. These loads are often downloaded to work in old Trapdoor Springfields. A downloaded 300 gr load in an 1895, especially the heavy octagonal barreled rifles, can be downright pleasant to shoot. But a 540 gr Garrett load through an NEF HandiRifle (NOT recommended, BTW) would be nothing short of... punishing.

 

[redneck2]

FWIW...

I have a Marlin 1895 in .45-70. When I first got it, I had a Decelerator pad installed

I loaded up some 405 Speers over a load (for Marlin's, etc ONLY) of Varget. IRRC they're doing somewhere around 1,800. Pretty good "thump" .

Recoil is very manageable. At 5'7", I'd shoot 50 in a row with no problem.