Big boys .458 SOCOM Monster vs the Beowulf

[Float Pilot]

Besides hunting and /or protection from dangerous game, such as for use by a guide who already has way too much to pack, there is another use in the anti personel role.

Something along the lines of a 300 to 500 grain projectile at anywhere from 1,300 fps to 2,000 fps is much better in stopping (instant incap) at very close range. There is no need for bullet fragmentation, tumbling, or any other magic stuff. Just slam power. Those of use who hunt see this in operation when using the proper firearm. The standard M-4 carbine does not deliver this with standard 5.56mm ammo. It only seems powerful enough to those whom have never used a potent cartridge.

PLUS: A big heavy projectile at 45-70 plus-P velocities would be more likey to incapacitate opponents wearing body armor (suicide vest) than the lightweight 5.56mm round at close range. (Particularly the 62 grain M855 round which is overstabilized by a 1 in 7 twist)

It may not totally penetrate the kevlar and /or truma plates, but the testing we conducted showed that large heavy bullets still caused deep tissue damage somewhat similar to being hit with a sledge hammer. They may live through it, but they are out of the fight immediately.

 

[Wanta B]

Simply because a rifle was built to stand up to punishment does not mean that it will hold up to cartridges that it was NOT built around,ie. 1911 in 10mm=BROKEN! I have several ARs and still I would go AK over M4 in combat given the choice if reliability is the main concern...quite often the case.Perhaps I should clearify to some degree as to my question of how they hold up and why.

These are hard hitting cartridges with,as I understand it,have comparable recoil to the .45-70.So do they need heavier recoil springs?Buffers?How many rounds is the expected life of an AR with one of these uppers?What are the cartridge pressures?

I would like to know because I actualy like the platform and think one of these uppers would be GREAT to have but want to know some background on them first.

As far as the OP goes I realy would like to know,given a rather breif look around,how the 458 seems to outpreform the 50 when it looks like the 50 has more case volume and being the same case diameter it would seem that one could fit just as many rounds in a magazine.

 

[Johnnypi45]

Out of curiousty, would any of these uppers be capable of use on a DPMS 308 lower?...

I'm new to the whole AR platform, and just recently purchased the Remington R-25 in 308. These are built by DPMS but stamped by remington for their own resale. i really like the idea of these rounds, and am just curious about this as an option. Thanks!

Petey

 

[dmazur]

From another site -

The cartridge will function from standard AR-10 lowers and magazines, and the 20-round OEM magazine will accept at least 6 of the Phantom cartridges. The DPMS LR-308 rifle can also be modified to accept this cartridge. By using the standard magnum rim size, the OEM bolts designed for use with the WSM or RSAUM line of cartridges can be used without further modification. Existing upper assemblies can be converted to .500 Phantom by rebarreling and adjusting the gas system.

Here's the link -

500 Phantom

 

[Snowshoe Moose]

neighbors

Hi, Float Pilot,

I'm about 80 miles up the road from you. I'd like to chat with you sometime about your ideas in rifles and ammo.

 

[JWarren]

The cartridge will function from standard AR-10 lowers and magazines, and the 20-round OEM magazine will accept at least 6 of the Phantom cartridges. The DPMS LR-308 rifle can also be modified to accept this cartridge. By using the standard magnum rim size, the OEM bolts designed for use with the WSM or RSAUM line of cartridges can be used without further modification. Existing upper assemblies can be converted to .500 Phantom by rebarreling and adjusting the gas system.

You're pretty much out of luck with the .500 Phantom. Teppo Jutsu has pretty much abandoned production of the cartridge.

I looked into it for a spare LR-308 upper receiver that I have laying around.

Now, I am considering a supressed SRB out of it.



-- John

 

[Float Pilot]

Snowshoe Moose

Any time
[email protected]
www.floatplanealaska.com

 

[msiley]

Man! Going from a tiny .22 caliber bullet to a monster .45-70
like bullet. Does anyone think this will take off militarily?

Why not just go with a .308 and be done? You have range and power.
With the .450 you have power but lack range, and vice versa with
5.56. Not that 5.56 lacks power but compared to a .308 it does.

I guess it's always good to have choices. I just find the
extremes here amusing.

 

[Cap'n Jack Burntbeard]

I want this for my AK

These things are sweet. But why do the ARs get to have all the fun, I want a milled AK in .50 beowulf. Since the AK is primarily a short range carbine, it would make sense to chamber it in something obscenely huge and short range.
I suppose us AK folks will have to stick to our saiga shotties with slugs for now

 

[kirklandkie]

cap'n jack, there are companies that specialize in building/rebuilding rifles for people
with enough cash you could get a one of a kind .50 beowulf AK

-kirk

p.s. my beowulf upper has been on order for 8 weeks and they still don't know when it'll arrive to my door

 

[Javelin]

What is the mag capacity? 10?

 

[HorseSoldier]

Man! Going from a tiny .22 caliber bullet to a monster .45-70
like bullet. Does anyone think this will take off militarily?

It hasn't yet and it never will. For military applications it's a vanishingly remote niche product, and didn't even attract any real attention in white side SOF as far as I ever heard before ETS'ing.

I have heard online accounts of some contractors using them in Iraq due to their better (in theory) ability to stop an approaching car, but I'm fairly certain a good solid burst from a 240 or PK or similar would do just as nicely without near the logistical fuss for military use.

Why not just go with a .308 and be done? You have range and power.

You give up 50% of your basic load of ammunition to get range that 99% of troops will never use and more recoil to go with more power, making your weapon slow and clumsy handling at the ranges where real killing occurs.

The merits of a heavier cartridge than 5.56mm are debatable, though with some very valid points, but .308 wasn't the right answer 50 years ago for a general service cartridge, and has not gotten more correct with the passage of time.

 

[Tony Williams]

The merits of a heavier cartridge than 5.56mm are debatable, though with some very valid points, but .308 wasn't the right answer 50 years ago for a general service cartridge, and has not gotten more correct with the passage of time.

I agree that the 7.62mm is too big, too heavy and recoils too much to be ideal, but British troops in Helmand are finding themselves ouranged by Taleban equipped with PKMs and Dragunovs in 7.62x54R. In that open countryside, engagements of up to 900m are not uncommon, at which distance 5.56mm is useless. They are also finding the 5.56mm to be very limited in barrier penetration and unreliable in putting a man down.

The ideal is certainly a compromise round somewhere in between the 5.56mm and 7.62mm, probably with ballistics similar to the 6.5mm Grendel. But I can't see that happening until the next generation of plastic cased or caseless ammo comes along, which won't be for a long time. So to solve the immediate problem, it makes sense to me for the UK to acquire some modern rifles in 7.62x51 (probably the HK 417, which is already in service with special forces) to replace the disliked L86A2 LSW in the fire team.

 

[GaGunGuy]

458 SOCOM takes the cake

These are both interesting rounds, but I think the SOCOM is certainly the better round. For one it was designed to run at very similar pressures to the .223 to maintain the timing and pressure sensitivity of the AR-15 platform. This is why you don't need to change anything on the weapon other than the complete upper, where as with the Beowolf or the Bushmaster you have to modify the rifle such as new buffer springs, different mags, or a new bolt, etc.
Because of this the SOCOM retains a lot of the reliability and longevity of the original platform because you are operating at roughly the same pressures and cycle timing of the .223. The factory rounds made by CorBon, Reeds, and SBR even have the same burn rate (approximately) as the standard .223 loads.
But its knock down is far better. The 300 grain loads actually preform better than the 300 grain 458 Win Mag loads.

 

[jeepmor]

And I thought 10mm brass was expensive.

Interesting thread, but not for me. If I go with something like this, it'll probably be a 300 Whisper or the like. Suppose the HRT qualifies. Funky looking brass with that 223 rim kept for function.

 

[Jaws]

I agree that the 7.62mm is too big, too heavy and recoils too much to be ideal, but British troops in Helmand are finding themselves ouranged by Taleban equipped with PKMs and Dragunovs in 7.62x54R. In that open countryside, engagements of up to 900m are not uncommon, at which distance 5.56mm is useless. They are also finding the 5.56mm to be very limited in barrier penetration and unreliable in putting a man down.

The ideal is certainly a compromise round somewhere in between the 5.56mm and 7.62mm, probably with ballistics similar to the 6.5mm Grendel. But I can't see that happening until the next generation of plastic cased or caseless ammo comes along, which won't be for a long time. So to solve the immediate problem, it makes sense to me for the UK to acquire some modern rifles in 7.62x51 (probably the HK 417, which is already in service with special forces) to replace the disliked L86A2 LSW in the fire team.

__________________

The 7x46mm Murray would work nice. With this new multicaliber rifles coming out, it wouldn't be that big a deal to adopt.

 

[tommyintx]

flint needs commenting here. he has the .458 socom, and i want to set one up like his. a VERY sweet setup, i must say.

 

[Girodin]

cap'n jack, there are companies that specialize in building/rebuilding rifles for people with enough cash you could get a one of a kind .50 beowulf AK

You might try contacting Tony Rumore at Tromix. I do not know if he is selling them but there was talk he was looking into making big bore AKs. He would likely be making them in .458 Socom. If it weren't for Tony we probably wouldn't have the .458 ARs either. He is the guy that blazed a lot of trails in big bore ARs. Anything made by Tony will be a fantastic product.

I really want a .458 socom despite the fact I have no real purpose for it.

 

[jmorris]

The factory rounds made by CorBon, Reeds, and SBR even have the same burn rate (approximately) as the standard .223 loads.

I’m not one to wake the dead (thread is from 2007) but will correct an error. The 458 socom uses powders with burn rates that you would use for magnum pistol rounds not the .223. For example on the chard below H110 (great powder for the 458) is 117 out of 267 and 748 (great for .223) is 162. Pressure and burn rate are not the same thing at all and the 458 case doesn’t have enough volume to utilize the slower burning rifle powders.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp

Interesting thread, but not for me. If I go with something like this, it'll probably be a 300 Whisper or the like. Suppose the HRT qualifies. Funky looking brass with that 223 rim kept for function.

But you can't get a 600 grain bullet for the .300 Whisper and if your going subsonic the only way to get energy back is with a big hunk of lead.

 

[TonyRumore]

Yeah, I made the first .458 Socom back in February of 2001. That picture the OP posted of the round in a magazine, was taken the evening that the gun was finished. The original gun is in the background, Tromix S/N TR-0004 which is currently being used by Corbon to test their ammo. I also built two AK's in .458 SOCOM as well as one Mini-14 and currently have plans to build a Sig 556 into a .458. Back in the late 90's I built AR's in 50AE, 440 Corbon, 44 Rem Mag, 357 Automag, and 44 Automag. I also built one AR in .475 Tremor which is the Socom case necked up to .475. The only big bores that I have built recently were one 444 Marlin AK, and one 375/444 AK.

Here's a pic of 10,000 Starline cases that I had to buy personally, to get the SOCOM off the ground.

Second pic is the only suppressed Tromix .458 SOCOM I ever made.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp

 

[Wanta B]

This must have been in the wind or something...

"The 300 grain loads actually preform better than the 300 grain 458 Win Mag loads." Man that sounds an aweful lot like a thread I was chatting in...several of us were comparing the .45-70's performance compared to the bigger .458s. Smaller cartridge having more penetration than the larger faster ones. I have seen it first hand but still need to do more testing to confirm totaly.

So no one has any idea how the .458 SOCOM fits more rounds into a mag than the 500 Beowolf..?

Now as far as performance goes I would think that they would have much the same relationship to one another as .338Fed compared to handloaded .358Win. The smaller diameter has better down range energy and better distance where as the larger one has better close range punch...If they both have roughly the same energy.

In my current point of interest I carry a slightly modified Marlin 1895 .45-70 as back-up and can easily see these uppers,al beit rather limited,having significant merit.

 

[TonyRumore]

Well, in your post sir....you stated that the 50 Beowulf holds 12 and the Socom 10ea. Now you are claiming the other way around.

Whatever.......the .458 SOCOM will hold 10rds in a standard 30rd GI mag. I have seen some mags where you can get 11 rounds in. I seriously doubt you can get 12 Beowulf rounds in a standard GI mag.

Tony

 

[Wanta B]

I agree with Horsesoldier that the debate continues over the 5.56 being adequate and that more often than not the 7.62 NATO is not the best choice for general use .I disagree with the slow and clumsy however,as modern weapons and old ones that have been "modernized" are quite fast and nimble.Slower,perhaps...not my experience tho',at least where on target and effective neutralization is concerned.Just running a range coarse,sometimes but not in the feild.Again just my experience.
As to carry capacity there is no doubt but in 20+ years I have always come back with ammunition to spare.But perhaps that is simple luck.

 

[Wanta B]

Did I mix that up? My apologizes...I will have to recheck. I do know that it confused me because they have roughly the same case diameter. I have no personal experience with these two cartridges but do have a great deal of interest so I am attempting to gather infirmation on them.Just trying to confirm that or not.

 

[TonyRumore]

I just checked the Alexander Arms website, and they list a 10rd magazine that looks like a standard 30 rounder. Whoever quoted you a 12rd capacity must have been talking up something other than a GI mag.

A 40rd magazine holds 14-15 rounds, so that 12 number seems a bit odd. Maybe with a cut down follower and spring, you could get 12 in some standard GI mags........maybe.

Tony