Big-spending Republicans

[XLMiguel]

Politicians learned long ago that they can buy a constituancy by doling out the public largess. The solution to the problem is getting rid of the profligates and elect fiscally responsible candidates. I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out which party you are most likely to find fiscally responsible candidates in :banghead:

politics, from the Greek, poli[?I], meaning 'many', and tics, small blood sucking parasites

 

[Rebar]

I was talking about actual party affiliation, not views on issues. Sanders' affiliation is Independent.

Bernard ("Bernie") Sanders (born September 8, 1941) has been a member of the United States House of Representatives since 1991, representing the state of Vermont as an Independent Socialist. He is the only independent member of the House, and is one of very few self-described socialists elected to federal office in the United States in recent times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

He is a Socialist, or what I like to say, the only honest Democrat.

In recent elections, Libertarians have run far more candidates for office, at all levels, than all other third parties combined.

That sounds like a lot, but compared to the total number of state legislative seats, it's tiny. Plus, it's winning that counts, and libertarians don't win. They haven't won in the last 30 years, they won't win in the next 30 years.

The GOP needs a swift kick to the ass to get their act together and once again become the party we all support

That party was the minority party for 38 years. It seems obvious that people aren't ready for a Goldwater-style GOP, and that they like neocons, because that's how they're voting.

The question is, do we hand power back to the Democrats, who will make it their mission in life to geld gun owners for all time, or do we work from within the republicans to move them towards conservative/libertarian principles while mantaining the majority?

Simply put, it does suck that the GOP is pork barreling. But it'll be easier to earn our way out of the fiscal hole, then to get back our guns after the Democrats take them.

 

[publius]

Plus, it's winning that counts, and libertarians don't win. They haven't won in the last 30 years, they won't win in the next 30 years.

I think you're missing my main point, which was that we are winning. We win every time part of the duopoly adopts one of our issues, bringing it from the fringe to the mainstream. Privatizing Socialist Security, school vouchers, and emissions trading are just a few examples. Those had to start somewhere, and ideas like those don't come from the safety of the mainstream parties. They start on the fringes, and work inward.

Now, our policies in those 3 areas have become Republican policies. That's winning the war of ideas, if not the elected offices.

Edit: wasn't aware we had an "Indepenent Socialist" party in America. Does it have any other members besides Sanders? Or is his affiliation really just Independent?

 

[griz]

Here's an honest question for the "change from within" folks.

Are there any examples of the Party becoming more conservative in the last few decades? The closest thing I can remember is Gingrich's contract, which I view as a reaction to a threat by a third party that was bleeding votes from the R's. If the results of the internal change plan are bigger government and more spending, it sounds like the plan has already failed. Again that's a real question, I'm not just trying to make a point with it.

 

[publius]

I'm a change from without kinda guy, but I'll answer your question. The answer is YES. There are examples, all the best ones being ideas swiped from the LP. As mentioned, those include privatizing socialist security, school vouchers, and emissions trading as notable examples.

The folks on the inside did that, and I salute them. We on the outside broke the ground which made it possible.

 

[Flyboy]

Nobody cares what you think. Not one whit.

You seem to.

I think I was unclear. I care, as do, I think, most of the people on the board. I wouldn't be discussing this with everybody if I didn't. What I meant is that nobody in power cares where you think the party should go, because they don't have to. They don't have to earn your vote--you've already promised it to them. And I'm not referring to the "oh, I just can't make up my mind" type, I'm referring to people who don't make up their mind until after they actually hear the candidates' ideas (or at least learn who the candidates are going to be).

Griz makes a good point: the only example that comes to mind of the Republicans being fiscally restrained is when they were out of power and fighting for votes. I think there's something to that.

If the Republican candidates for office in your precinct reflect your views better than others, great, by all means, vote for them. Until you know who they are, though, and review things like their voting records (to find out if they actually live up to their promises), you can't possibly know what they're likely to do in office, just a self-affixed label.

 

[Big Bad Wolf]

The question is, do we hand power back to the Democrats, who will make it their mission in life to geld gun owners for all time, or do we work from within the republicans to move them towards conservative/libertarian principles while mantaining the majority?

How do you plan on going about effecting change from the inside? What makes you think that those in total power care about the people in any way? Is Bush and the other neocons leaders listening to anyone let alone the simple voter?

No, the only way to get the GOP back on track is for them to see a decline in voters every other November, descent from the party core, and a decline in campaign donations, nothing else will get the GOP to do some self reflection. Nothing gets those in total power to listen then the threat they might lose power, nothing. If it means we run the chance of gridlocking the Congress and may have to put up with a Democrat President again for a few years so be it.

One month of Bush has been more harmful the a year of Clinton and so long as we keep majorities in the House the gun issue will not be a problem because they are the only reason we are not getting pummeled with new anti-gun laws now!

 

[griz]

Thanks Publius. I should have remembered the private SS accounts if nothing else. Even if it started as a LP idea, the administration deserves credit for spending a bit of capitol getting the idea in the mainstream.

 

[Probasco]

porky

pork is in the eye of the beholder, if you lived in alaska, you would note that it has fewer highways than any state, less federal funding than any state, yet it provides us with much needed oil. gas? the roads will be a lot cheaper to use in the long run. now people have to fly everywhere they go. planes dont get very good mileage. just my 2 cents

 

[Rebar]

We win every time part of the duopoly adopts one of our issues, bringing it from the fringe to the mainstream.

First, seems to me only the republicans are bringing these ideas to the table, the Democrats are having collective heart failure over privatizing SS for example. Next, even if it's the libertarians who bring these ideas to the table, voting for them is still a wasted vote. because they'll never get elected to impliment them. If you want libertarian policy implimented, vote republican.

wasn't aware we had an "Indepenent Socialist" party in America. Does it have any other members besides Sanders? Or is his affiliation really just Independent?

"Independent" doesn't describe anything, independent what, Socialist, Libertarian, Whig? He's a self proclaimed socialist, I take him at his word.

Are there any examples of the Party becoming more conservative in the last few decades?

I brought up the fact that the more conservative repuiblicans were in the minority for 38 years. There is no doubt the party has expanded to the left, diluting the conservative voice. But in exchange, they're winning more elections and now have the majority. The plain fact is America likes the new party better.

Threatening to leave them if they don't return to a losing strategy, that doesn't seem like much of a threat. America is swinging back towards conservatism, but it's not there yet, adapting to the real situation is just smart politics. And we get some things we want, like a stop to the war against law abiding gun owners and better judges on the bench.

Working within the party to nudge it more and more to the conservative/libertarian realm, as America can handle it, is a strategy that can work. Handing power back to the vengeful Democrats, the party of Schumer, Fienstien, Kennedy, Hillary, Pelosi, and that crew, is just plain stupid.

 

[Big Bad Wolf]

If you want libertarian policy implimented, vote republican.

No, if you want bastardized LP policy implemented vote Republican. They take some of the LP's ideas and morph them into something totally futile and virtually unidentifiable from the original proposed LP policy. The LP called for true privatization of SS not the half assed idea Bush Co. is proposing. It is a start but Bush's plan is just another form of Government control of your retirement dollars and we all have seen how well the first SS plan went with the Government in control of it.

There is no doubt the party has expanded to the left, diluting the conservative voice. But in exchange, they're winning more elections and now have the majority. The plain fact is America likes the new party better.

Threatening to leave them if they don't return to a losing strategy, that doesn't seem like much of a threat. America is swinging back towards conservatism, but it's not there yet, adapting to the real situation is just smart politics. And we get some things we want, like a stop to the war against law abiding gun owners and better judges on the bench.

Working within the party to nudge it more and more to the conservative/libertarian realm, as America can handle it, is a strategy that can work. Handing power back to the vengeful Democrats, the party of Schumer, Fienstien, Kennedy, Hillary, Pelosi, and that crew, is just plain stupid.

Nonsense.

Don't you see what is going on with the GOP? The Socialists gained power in the Democratic party in the late 70's and look where that got them. It is the same thing all over again just this time it's the GOP! It makes no difference any longer which party is in control, the Socialist lefty agenda moves forward.

The Socialist Democrats aren't going change and neither will these Socialists Republicans. To think the GOP's hard left turn is just a Republican gambit to pick up new voters and reintroduce some normal principals at select later dates is just ridiculous. The true Conservatives in the House are the only thing keeping gun control down at the moment, not the Senate and certainly not Bush. When the true Conservatives are all gone where will be then? We will be left with a bunch of Socialist Republicans who sympathize with gun control. Yeah, keep on supporting these dirtbags.

As for judges, yeah Republican justices have worked real well for us in the past as apparent by the constant hatred of their bad decisions by many here and in Conservative circles. Oh yeah 7 of the 9 SCOTUS justices were appointed by Republicans! Now at best as most GOP supporters and critics can tell Roberts will be just be another Souter. Even the head GOP cheerleader Ann Coulter is critical of him and being I am seeing more Democrats coming out in favor of Roberts then Republicans I am sure we will be stuck with another yet Republican appointed lemon.

The more power they gain the worse off we will be. I am convinced the best Congress at this point is a gridlocked Congress. At least it will slow the Socialist progression some because of partisan bickering and hatred for one another.

 

[Rebar]

The LP called for true privatization of SS not the half assed idea Bush Co. is proposing.

More rediculous all-or-nothing rhetoric. This is why libertarians cannot win even minor local elections. If all-or-nothing is 99.999999999% likely to be nothing, you just might want to think about comprimise. Oh, I forgot, you'd rather have nothing, just so you can beat your chest about how libertarian you are.

It makes no difference any longer which party is in control, the Socialist lefty agenda moves forward.

I've already debunked this absurd notion that there's no difference between the parties a dozen times already.

By all means, if you want to live in some libertarian fantasy world where all you have to do is demand all or nothing on all your principles, and anyone who says no is a nazi/communist/whatever, go right ahead. However, some of us live in the real world, and will work with what we have to make things better as we can, or keep things from getting worse. Incrimental progress is a lot better than no progress at all, or going backwards.

Maybe someday you'll wake up, and realize something is better than nothing.

 

[Big Bad Wolf]

More rediculous all-or-nothing rhetoric. This is why libertarians cannot win even minor local elections. If all-or-nothing is 99.999999999% likely to be nothing, you just might want to think about comprimise. Oh, I forgot, you'd rather have nothing, just so you can beat your chest about how libertarian you are.

Totally absurd.

I will happy to settle for a compromise that stayed somewhat true to the original LP policy, but to claim Bush's plan is anywhere near 99.99% of what the LP's policy is is just totally misleading and is typical of neo-conservative arrogance and misdirection of today.

I've already debunked this absurd notion that there's no difference between the parties a dozen times already.

You have debunked nothing.

Limitless Government continues unimpeded.
The welfare state marches on.
States rights continue to be squashed.
Civil Liberties continue to erode.
Big Brother continues on without prejudice.
Deficits mount up.
Placating to the UN continues.
The border remains wide open.
A National ID will become reality.
The appeasing of China continues.

and on and on it goes.....

 

[hifi]

I've already debunked this absurd notion that there's no difference between the parties a dozen times already.

Oh yes, it certainly appears that way.

The only thing you've debunked is your credibility as a conservative..

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I've already debunked this absurd notion that there's no difference between the parties a dozen times already

Rebar, I think most people would agree that there is still a little difference between the two parties, but the Republican party is closing that gap rapidly and moving to the left as fast as it can under the neo-conservatives.

So, while there still is some difference, there certainly not much difference, and at some point in the near future there will be no difference, unless something inside the Republican party changes.

And I have to agree with others that you haven't debunked anything, though I have seen a fair amount of ranting, raving, foaming at the mouth, bashing everyone who disagrees with you, and apologizing for Bush and Republicans.

Incrimental progress is a lot better than no progress at all, or going backwards.

On what issues have we seen incremental progress by the Republicans?

Explain how Medicare Reform, McCain-Feingold, No Child Left Behind, Patriot Act, and CAFTA are incremental victories of a conservative agenda, Rebar. The truth is, there has been no incremental progress at all, with the exception of the gun issue, with the expiration of the AWB and passage of manufacturer liablity reform.

 

[Rebar]

I had type this long response, then the site went down and I lost it, so this will be brief.

The fact is, Bush was better than the alternatives. You all can post DU/Moveon/DNC talking points bashing Bush until the cows come home, the fact remains Bush is vastly better then Gore/Kerry would have been. I recommended a viable course of action if you're dissatisfied, the Bush bashers only offer the unacceptable - letting the Democrats win.

Which is their real purpose: there are DU trolls here who think if they can tear down the republicans enough, they can split the gun vote. The liberal/left desperately want to neuter the gun vote, which cost them the last two elections.

From starting fake "pro-hunting" organizations, to their leaders lying through their teeth that they're pro second amendment and only want reasonable gun control, to activists pretending to be one of us haunting gun boards to tear down the republicans, it's all one agenda.

Don't fall for it. Don't let the trolls come here and persuade you to do something directly against your interests. If you're a gun owner, if you value your RKBA, voting Democrat is just plain stupid.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

As I have said before, not everyone who bashes Bush is a DU troll. The majority of people on this forum are Republican, and criticism of Bush to other Republicans serves to move the party to the right, not the left. I am pretty sure that Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan would be pretty uhappy with Bush, and I certainly would not think of them as DU Trolls.

Ony if the target audience is mainly Democrats is bashing Bush detrimental.

This is similar to disciplining a small child. If he acts badly, you correct him, not because you want to get rid of him, but because you want him to do better than he is doing.

The majority of people here would agree that Bush is better than Kerry. What we wish is that Bush would have been better than what he is.

It is all about changing the party from within. If free discussion is not considered, and simply disregarded as "Bush bashing" from DU Trolls, then changing the party from within will never happen.

Heck, I am happy to point of Bush's shortcomings, there are so many its easy to do. But that should not be misconstrued as support of the left. Quite the contrary, in fact, as I wish the Republican party would go back to their conservative roots.

 

[Rebar]

There's a big difference between constructive criticism, and offering solutions, and the mindless Bush-bashing that's in this topic. Reading this thread from the beginning will offer plenty of proof that there are in fact DU trolls here.

 

[Big Bad Wolf]

I had type this long response, then the site went down and I lost it, so this will be brief.

The fact is, Bush was better than the alternatives. You all can post DU/Moveon/DNC talking points bashing Bush until the cows come home, the fact remains Bush is vastly better then Gore/Kerry would have been. I recommended a viable course of action if you're dissatisfied, the Bush bashers only offer the unacceptable - letting the Democrats win.

Which is their real purpose: there are DU trolls here who think if they can tear down the republicans enough, they can split the gun vote. The liberal/left desperately want to neuter the gun vote, which cost them the last two elections.

From starting fake "pro-hunting" organizations, to their leaders lying through their teeth that they're pro second amendment and only want reasonable gun control, to activists pretending to be one of us haunting gun boards to tear down the republicans, it's all one agenda.

Don't fall for it. Don't let the trolls come here and persuade you to do something directly against your interests. If you're a gun owner, if you value your RKBA, voting Democrat is just plain stupid.

Well there went all creditability for Rebar the "Conservative."

You are the one hanging onto the new lefty policies of the Republicans and telling us it's somehow cathartically better that the Republicans bring forth this crap then the Democrats, regardless of who is doing the shoveling we are still being buried with crap. Which one of us is clinging to this new Liberal Republican party like a baby to a nipple? Which one of us is the Liberal troll from DU?

You say it's a fact a Gore or Kerry Presidency would have been worse. I disagree because the last time the Republicans actually acted like Republicans was when there was a Democrat in the White House. At least back then they had to play the game, now they don't even bother.

Republicans have proven they are irresponsible when they have all the power just as the Democrats did. If it is not painfully apparent yet one party rule is never a good thing.

 

[Rebar]

Well there went all creditability for Rebar the "Conservative."

Errr... I never claimed to be a conservative, I'm an anti-leftist pro-RKBA voter.

Which one of us is the Liberal troll from DU?

That's the dumbest thing on this thread yet.

If it is not painfully apparent yet one party rule is never a good thing.

And yet you'll give that one party rule back to the Democrats, why? Because they did such a great job the 38 years they had it before?

 

[Big Bad Wolf]

And yet you'll give that one party rule back to the Democrats, why? Because they did such a great job the 38 years they had it before?

No, now this is the dumbest thing in this thread yet.

I never said hand power back to the Dems nor has anyone else, I hate the Dems but at least a gridlocked Congress was more beneficial then the one party rule Congress we have now. Can't pass liberal crap from either party when the 2 parties cannot even agree on what color ink they should be using to write this crap.

 

[Rebar]

I hate the Dems but at least a gridlocked Congress was more beneficial then the one party rule Congress we have now.

Doesn't this require either giving power to the Democrats either by giving them congress, or giving them the presidency? And how will you accomplish this by bashing Bush and the republicans?

 

[hifi]

You all can post DU/Move on/DNC talking points bashing Bush until the cows come home

Getting out of the U.N. is a DU/Move on/DNC liberal talking point?

Slamming neocons for the fact that they have zero fiscal responsibility is a DU/Move on/DNC liberal talking point?

Defending gun rights is a DU/Move on/DNC liberal talking point?

What's also humorous is that you name the exact same organizations as other well trained neocon chimps.

As usual, you have absolutely zero argument, just alot of gibberish and yapping to try and drown out conservative voices. You're doing exactly what the leftist, socialist neocons on the radio have brainwashed you into doing. Congratulations at being a total tool!

 

[Rebar]

Bashing Bush is a DU/Move on/DNC liberal talking point.

Bashing republicans is a DU/Move on/DNC liberal talking point.

Dividing gun owners is a DU/Move on/DNC liberal talking point.

Making people not vote republican is a DU/Move on/DNC liberal talking point.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's likely a duck. You talk exactly like the most radical DU member on their boards, why is that I wonder?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

So you are against changing the party from within?

I am pro-2nd Amendment, anti-abortion, and anti-gay marriage. I support small government. I don't support large government welfare programs.

I think I would be very unpopular on DU. If I am a DU operative I am certainly well embedded here LOL.

I am not trying to make people not vote Republican, just trying to make them wake up and vote for a conservative in the primaries.