beerslurpy
member
Has anyone done gel testing of bird bombs? Would they be as effective as a slug for home defense?
bird bombs for self defense?
- Thread starter beerslurpy
- Start date
- Status
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I habitually discourage doing anything unconventional or unorthodox with self defense shotgun ammunition, for a variety of reasons. That same opinion definitely applies here.
I have used bird bombs for their intended purpose, and they work reasonably well for that. As far as using one as a projectile intended to stop a lethal force attack, however, I would not do it. The simple reason is that the mass of the payload is so small that I would have serious doubts of its ability to penetrate, even at close range. No matter what else it did or didn't do, that would cinch it for me.
There is nothing that needs to be done defensively with a shotgun that cannot be accomplished with conventional ammunition of shot or slugs. There is no need to seek anything more capable or wicked than conventional ammunition. I have zipped body bags on people shot with shotguns at close range, and have helped wash down the aftermath of one shotgun shooting with a firehose. If you do your part in delivering the payload, conventional shotgun ammunition is up to the task to a greater degree than that from any other firearm available.
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
I have used bird bombs for their intended purpose, and they work reasonably well for that. As far as using one as a projectile intended to stop a lethal force attack, however, I would not do it. The simple reason is that the mass of the payload is so small that I would have serious doubts of its ability to penetrate, even at close range. No matter what else it did or didn't do, that would cinch it for me.
There is nothing that needs to be done defensively with a shotgun that cannot be accomplished with conventional ammunition of shot or slugs. There is no need to seek anything more capable or wicked than conventional ammunition. I have zipped body bags on people shot with shotguns at close range, and have helped wash down the aftermath of one shotgun shooting with a firehose. If you do your part in delivering the payload, conventional shotgun ammunition is up to the task to a greater degree than that from any other firearm available.
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
My humble 1/50th of $1 . . .
Bird Bombs, Screamers, Flechette Loads, et al come under the heading of "Novelty Rounds" They have their specific purposes, but NOT for Home Defense...unless you are defending your home from an Alfred Hitchcock movie.
Some of those would be quite fun for playing around i.e. "Novelty Use", but for the Most Serious Situations, I'll stick with my pet loads...Rem 3"Mag #4 Buck & the PMC slug. Those 2 work the best from my Maverick 88 with the 18-1/2" cylinder bore barrrel.
FYE...For Your Entertainment, there was a thread here started by Preacherman about the Dragon's Breath round use in a Home Defense case...but still not what I would recommend. Adavnced Search for Dragons Breath with user name Preacherman
Bird Bombs, Screamers, Flechette Loads, et al come under the heading of "Novelty Rounds" They have their specific purposes, but NOT for Home Defense...unless you are defending your home from an Alfred Hitchcock movie.
Some of those would be quite fun for playing around i.e. "Novelty Use", but for the Most Serious Situations, I'll stick with my pet loads...Rem 3"Mag #4 Buck & the PMC slug. Those 2 work the best from my Maverick 88 with the 18-1/2" cylinder bore barrrel.
FYE...For Your Entertainment, there was a thread here started by Preacherman about the Dragon's Breath round use in a Home Defense case...but still not what I would recommend. Adavnced Search for Dragons Breath with user name Preacherman
musher
Member
I wouldn't want to be in my living room with a bird bomb when it went off.
simple rule to live by. if the name of the round doesnt have an animal atleast the size of a human. DONT USE IT FOR SELF DEFENSE! ( exception being slugs wich dont refer to the slimey salt-a-phobic things, but rather the term used for almost any block of metal)
Snake Shot... NO
Bird Shot.... NO
Turkey loads.... NO
Buck Shot.... Yes
Slugs.... YES
Snake Shot... NO
Bird Shot.... NO
Turkey loads.... NO
Buck Shot.... Yes
Slugs.... YES
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Buck has a century long record of nigh perfect one shot stops. Why don't you use that?.....
Shawnee
member
Hi Beer...
Peter Hathaway Capstick - of African Hunting fame - wrote many times when an African guide has to go into the crud after a wounded lion or leopard whom he knows is mad and just waiting to take it out on somebody
the guide will put the 460 Weatherby away and take the 12ga semi-auto loaded to the hilt with #1 Buck.
Dat tell diss Homie sumpin' 'bout seff-d'fence ammo !
Peter Hathaway Capstick - of African Hunting fame - wrote many times when an African guide has to go into the crud after a wounded lion or leopard whom he knows is mad and just waiting to take it out on somebody
the guide will put the 460 Weatherby away and take the 12ga semi-auto loaded to the hilt with #1 Buck.Dat tell diss Homie sumpin' 'bout seff-d'fence ammo !
beerslurpy
member
I already am using 00 buck, but I was wondering how powerful a bang the birdbombs gave. I'm guessing nothing close to grenade strength.
GunNut
Member
I will continue using what the police use, Federal Tactical 00 Buck and Winchester Range slugs.
Gimmick ammo has no place in a person Home defense/CCW weapons.
Gimmick ammo has no place in a person Home defense/CCW weapons.
LaEscopeta
Member
By NFA law explosive projectiles can have no more than 1/4 oz. of power, or they will be destructive devices, requiring a tax stamp for each one. So think of bird bombs as big firecrackers. The one I think I remember being cut open when I was a kid had a cardboard and wrapped paper projectile, not something that will penetrate. And they have fuses timed to let them fly 100+/- yards out into a field among a flock of birds before going off; they don’t explode on impact. So I‘m thinking a home defense use will involve the projectile bouncing off the bad guy and going bang on the floor a second or two later. Who knows? This might scare the bad guy away. Or not.
tuna
member
I use bird bombs a lot, for birds.
Just for giggles, I shot one into the ground about 10 feet away. It sizzled for a few seconds and then blew out a little divot of grass, much less than when I attempt to play golf. Penetration was all of an inch in moist soil. Maybe two inches - but no more than that.
They are timed, kinda, so you'll have a sizzling firecracker in your bad guy / living room wall for a while before it bursts.
I agree it would be scary, especially when it sets fire to the drapes.
I wouldn't trust my life to it. But still fun to shoot.
Just for giggles, I shot one into the ground about 10 feet away. It sizzled for a few seconds and then blew out a little divot of grass, much less than when I attempt to play golf. Penetration was all of an inch in moist soil. Maybe two inches - but no more than that.
They are timed, kinda, so you'll have a sizzling firecracker in your bad guy / living room wall for a while before it bursts.
I agree it would be scary, especially when it sets fire to the drapes.
I wouldn't trust my life to it. But still fun to shoot.
Gordon
Member
In the bad ol days , many moons distant (1977) , I went camping along the Snake river in Idaho with friends. One odd fellow pitched his tent a couple hundred yards away and down on the river bank. He got pretty drunk one night and went down to crash in his pup tent. In the morning we were supposed to leave and the guy still hadn't got up. So using my TOZ 66 12 ga. double like a motar with a couple bird bombs I let fly in the direction of the tent (on a 30-40 degree upward angle) The first bomb exploded pretty high in the air above the tent, so I lowered the muzzle a bit and fired the second barrel a few seconds later
This one went off almost on top of the tent with a nice 2 foot concussive fireball , and the very hung over occupant quickly staggered after me for about an hour going to thump my butt (he is my best friend) while everyone lay on the ground howling!
This one went off almost on top of the tent with a nice 2 foot concussive fireball , and the very hung over occupant quickly staggered after me for about an hour going to thump my butt (he is my best friend) while everyone lay on the ground howling!Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
The failure to penetrate could be the least of your worries if an over zealous prosecutor gets his hands on you. Even in clean shoots, some times the shooter finds him/her self in court.
=======================================================
Bonz,
I sat through most of Skip Gochenour's "After the Shooting" presentation this past Saturday, and all of it on Sunday. Essentially (AFAIK) the same presentation was given in Memphis at Tom Givens' Polite Society event in February. Here's what world- class instructor John Farnam had to say about it following that gathering:
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/25Feb06.html
Skip Gochenour talked with us about cases of self-defense in which he has been personally involved. Some important points:
"True" vindicators, like the ever-popular SODDI ("Some Other Dude Did it") or the TODDI ("That Other Dude Did it") defense are seldom involved, as facts are usually not in dispute.
Once you suggest that you shot someone by accident, thereafter "justification " will be unavailable to you, as you've already admitted justification is irrelevant.
In fact, once you're charged with a crime, the first casualty is the truth. Truth becomes irrelevant. Prosecutors care only about convictions. Thus, anything you can do to delay the decision to charge you is usually in your best interest. The truth will usually not set you free, but a lie will definitely lock you up!
"Mandatory Retreat" laws are designed to punish all who would take a stand, or "sustain engagement." Fortunately, public sentiment and policy is currently going the other way on this issue, in most states.
Character witnesses are important. Be a good person, so you'll always have plenty!
Home invaders are particularly dangerous. Don't let them get control. Especially, don't let them tie you up. The time to take a stand is when you still have options.
What is sometimes incorrectly labeled as "excessive force," is often simply "excessively repeated applications of less-than-adequate force. Force, when applied, must be designed and intended to end the fight quickly with a single application, or there is no point.
----------------------------------------------
John was the keynote speaker at the event I attended this weekend (Andy Stanford's OPS Glock Summit) and I noticed that he sat through the Sunday session of Skip's lecture again.
There are lecture notes from a similar presentation at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm that might prove interesting to anyone concerned with the legal entaglements that might arise out of the use of deadly force in self defense. Why should anyone be interested in what this man has to say? Well, Skip Gochenour is the Director of the National Tactical Invitational, for one thing. And he's an investigator who has interviewed over 600 killers in the course of his career. He's made it a point to study the whys and wherefores of shootings of all sorts, including defensive shootings. And it is true that things don't always go well for the 'home team' when the legal process begins.
I certainly would not encourage anyone to use something so much out of the ordinary as a bird bomb for self defense, obviously. But if that's what happened to be in the gun when the act of self defense took place, I don't think any prosecutor who would not otherwise object to the shooting would object for that reason. I don't know if that would be the case in every instance, no doubt points could be made in almost any direction where the legal profession is involved. But a legally defensible shooting is most likely to be treated as such regardless of the ammunition used. It might be that a civil action could result from the shooting, and that the selection of unorthodox ammunition might have a bearing there. I don't know, I have not made a study of the cases.
But Skip's most important point IMO in his two hour plus lecture was this*:
If you are completely in the right... if you have made up your mind not to submit to an unprovoked violent attack upon yourself and/or your loved ones... if you have trained and prepared yourself to resist such an attack with an appropriate level of force... if you have mentally dealt with the fact that such a violent encounter might well leave you injured, permanently crippled, or even dead...
ARE YOU GOING TO BE SCARED OF SOME LAWYER?
(* from my notes, paraphrased not directly quoted)
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
=======================================================
Bonz,
I sat through most of Skip Gochenour's "After the Shooting" presentation this past Saturday, and all of it on Sunday. Essentially (AFAIK) the same presentation was given in Memphis at Tom Givens' Polite Society event in February. Here's what world- class instructor John Farnam had to say about it following that gathering:
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/25Feb06.html
Skip Gochenour talked with us about cases of self-defense in which he has been personally involved. Some important points:
"True" vindicators, like the ever-popular SODDI ("Some Other Dude Did it") or the TODDI ("That Other Dude Did it") defense are seldom involved, as facts are usually not in dispute.
Once you suggest that you shot someone by accident, thereafter "justification " will be unavailable to you, as you've already admitted justification is irrelevant.
In fact, once you're charged with a crime, the first casualty is the truth. Truth becomes irrelevant. Prosecutors care only about convictions. Thus, anything you can do to delay the decision to charge you is usually in your best interest. The truth will usually not set you free, but a lie will definitely lock you up!
"Mandatory Retreat" laws are designed to punish all who would take a stand, or "sustain engagement." Fortunately, public sentiment and policy is currently going the other way on this issue, in most states.
Character witnesses are important. Be a good person, so you'll always have plenty!
Home invaders are particularly dangerous. Don't let them get control. Especially, don't let them tie you up. The time to take a stand is when you still have options.
What is sometimes incorrectly labeled as "excessive force," is often simply "excessively repeated applications of less-than-adequate force. Force, when applied, must be designed and intended to end the fight quickly with a single application, or there is no point.
----------------------------------------------
John was the keynote speaker at the event I attended this weekend (Andy Stanford's OPS Glock Summit) and I noticed that he sat through the Sunday session of Skip's lecture again.
There are lecture notes from a similar presentation at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm that might prove interesting to anyone concerned with the legal entaglements that might arise out of the use of deadly force in self defense. Why should anyone be interested in what this man has to say? Well, Skip Gochenour is the Director of the National Tactical Invitational, for one thing. And he's an investigator who has interviewed over 600 killers in the course of his career. He's made it a point to study the whys and wherefores of shootings of all sorts, including defensive shootings. And it is true that things don't always go well for the 'home team' when the legal process begins.
I certainly would not encourage anyone to use something so much out of the ordinary as a bird bomb for self defense, obviously. But if that's what happened to be in the gun when the act of self defense took place, I don't think any prosecutor who would not otherwise object to the shooting would object for that reason. I don't know if that would be the case in every instance, no doubt points could be made in almost any direction where the legal profession is involved. But a legally defensible shooting is most likely to be treated as such regardless of the ammunition used. It might be that a civil action could result from the shooting, and that the selection of unorthodox ammunition might have a bearing there. I don't know, I have not made a study of the cases.
But Skip's most important point IMO in his two hour plus lecture was this*:
If you are completely in the right... if you have made up your mind not to submit to an unprovoked violent attack upon yourself and/or your loved ones... if you have trained and prepared yourself to resist such an attack with an appropriate level of force... if you have mentally dealt with the fact that such a violent encounter might well leave you injured, permanently crippled, or even dead...
ARE YOU GOING TO BE SCARED OF SOME LAWYER?
(* from my notes, paraphrased not directly quoted)
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
beerslurpy
member
I was asking from the standpoint of terminal ballistics, not a legal standpoint. If I wanted a legal opinion, I wouldn't have posted here.
tuna
member
Another thing is that the whole cartridge is very light. I'm not sure of the exact weight of the bomb itself, but I'm pretty sure that penetration would stink due to the lack of mass.
- Status
