Bird-Shot as a Self-Defense Load?

[50caliber123]

I use a PCC as a defensive weapon for its ease of handling (shorter than a shotgun), its lesser noise (I don't plan on wearing my range hearing protection ndoors during a home invasion), less muzzle flash & blast, and more controllability for follow-up shots. I have long, narrow hallways and would likely go deaf from anything louder than my 9mm carbine. I'm not knocking anyone's choice for something different than my own, and have my own valid reasons for my choice. But with a bead-sighted shotgun, I have yet to find a loa that's accurate withou the use of a scope or another barrel with iron sights. Besides that, slugs end to run close to a dollar a round, vs. a 50rd box of 9mm still costing less than $20. Just my opinion, and I would choose to keep a shotgun loaded with buckshot. Up close, it probably wouldn't spread a pattern too wide, more likely less than 4".

 

[chuckusaret]

Am I wrong in thinking BB's are birdshot?

Yes, but ducks. BB is 44 pellets that are 0.18 in dia. The chart on the following link gives load data:
http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/goose-hunting/shotgun-shell-sizing-chart.php

 

[lefteyedom]

To stop a human attack at close range one must ether destroy the brain and/or the nerve pathway to the major muscles or break the skeletal structure so the person is unable to continue attacking. Head, spine or the pelvis, otherwise the attacker could still kill and yet still die of their wounds.

Newton's laws do not change no matter how many times Hollywood shows someone flying across the room when shot. It just does not happen that way in real life. People fall down when shot mostly because they "think" they should. Not because they where knocked off their feet.

The most effective part of a shotgun is the clear sound of a pump racking a round combined with the lore of the weapon. That sound clear states that it is fight or flight time. Most human will act on the fear of a shotgun and take flight. Not all but most will choose to fight another day if there is an exit open to them.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

To stop a human attack at close range one must ether destroy the brain and/or the nerve pathway to the major muscles or break the skeletal structure so the person is unable to continue attacking. Head, spine or the pelvis, otherwise the attacker could still kill and yet still die of their wounds.

Newton's laws do not change no matter how many times Hollywood shows someone flying across the room when shot. It just does not happen that way in real life. People fall down when shot mostly because they "think" they should. Not because they where knocked off their feet.

The most effective part of a shotgun is the clear sound of a pump racking a round combined with the lore of the weapon. That sound clear states that it is fight or flight time. Most human will act on the fear of a shotgun and take flight. Not all but most will choose to fight another day if there is an exit open to them.

So physics are hard and fast laws, but surely we can count on the sound of raching the shotgun to cause the threat to flee?

Why is that noise frightening enough to most humans, but the noise and flash and pain and visual grotesqueness of being hit by a blast of #6 shot in the chest or face isnt likely to work? Im not seeing your thought process here.

For the record, I keep 00 buckshot in my 12 gauge pump. Five rounds in the gun, five rounds on the butt cuff. Im fairly sure a load of birdshot would do the vast majority of the time against a human attacker, but I dont want to be stuck with it in the gun the day some vicious animal (big dog, bear, panther, alligator, take your pick), that hasnt seen TV or movies, and doesnt know its supposed to roll over and die when hit by gunfire, decides im a target.

 

[zhyla]

Why is that noise frightening enough to most humans, but the noise and flash and pain and visual grotesqueness of being hit by a blast of #6 shot in the chest or face isnt likely to work? Im not seeing your thought process here.

You just don't understand. Shotguns are the Chuck Norris of the gun world, provided you don't load them with birdshot.

When this thread dies I'm going to spawn another birdshot thread.

 

[RandKL]

To stop a human attack at close range one must ether destroy the brain and/or the nerve pathway to the major muscles or break the skeletal structure so the person is unable to continue attacking. Head, spine or the pelvis, otherwise the attacker could still kill and yet still die of their wounds.

Hate to argue the point since so many folks have it in their minds that that's how it is, the old "not enough penetration" crap....but 99% of shooting deaths have nothing to do with hitting the brain or the skeleton etc. The thing that kills in the vast majority of shootings is blood loss and loss of blood pressure. You can drop a person's blood pressure by 20% and he'll fall unconcious on the floor.

but the noise and flash and pain and visual grotesqueness of being hit by a blast of #6 shot

Exactly, RG.

rich

 

[ArmedBear]

but the noise and flash and pain and visual grotesqueness of being hit by a blast of #6 shot

You're discounting a VERY important factor.

Drugs and mental illness.

Someone who is sane and sober probably won't need to be shot. Looking at the muzzle of a 12 Gauge will be enough to make him turn and run.

Someone who is NOT sane and sober won't necessarily be deterred by #6 shot. Note the incidents where a suspect is shot several times by the police and still keeps fighting.

Sorry, but the "pain and flash" theory is complete bunk.

Have you ever hunted birds with #6 shot, BTW? I have, and I know exactly what it does to them. They sure don't all drop dead, even with a direct hit, and we're talking about birds, here: primitive, small and fragile.

 

[rbernie]

I will always favor the physiological effects of effective pentration over the psychological effects of sound and noise, especially when there's not much margin for failure (as would be the case in an armed SD/HD scenario).

 

[ArmedBear]

Another thing...

If someone thinks the pain, surprise and flash of a grouse load will stop an attacker, then so would the pain, surprise and flash of a 00 Buck defense load, right?

It's not like you're GIVING UP those things by choosing effective projectiles.

 

[Owen]

snooperman, do you have a reference for the Navy using BB shot for combat?

 

[zhyla]

It's not like you're GIVING UP those things by choosing effective projectiles.

This is not true. Why are people always asking about birdshot? Because they're worried about pellets going thru a wall and injuring a friendly. Otherwise nobody would even be asking. Buckshot is clearly a more effective round.

 

[ArmedBear]

Because they're worried about pellets going thru a wall and injuring a friendly.

If you need to make sure you know where all your projectiles are going, then don't use a SHOTGUN in the house.

Interior walls are not backstops, not even for birdshot.

 

[JShirley]

AB is entirely correct.

Hey, I use a carbine or slugs.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Yes , this has come up MANY TIMES !!!!

There are recorded cases of deer hunters getting hit COM with a 12 ga. SLUG and walking back to their car and driveing to the hospital !!!

There are also MANY recorded cases of people who DRT when hit by a single round of birdshot.

For myself --- the first round into the chamber is Hi-Brass #4 , follewed by 5 rds. of OO Buckshot and the last two rds. to load are Slugs.

Why #4 Birdshot as my choice for 1st round ??? You Do Not Always control when/where OTHER LOVED ONES are when you may have to end a deadly threat !!!

From ANYWHERE in my house {smaller house} --- I have FULL TRUST that a single round of larger Birdshot to the Head/Face or even chest area will give me PLENTY OF TIME to rack the slide or pull the trigger again !!!

 

[USSR]

Someone who is sane and sober

probably quit reading this thread a long time ago.

Don

 

[Gryffydd]

This is not true. Why are people always asking about birdshot? Because they're worried about pellets going thru a wall and injuring a friendly.

And what things was he discussing giving up?

If someone thinks the pain, surprise and flash of a grouse load will stop an attacker, then so would the pain, surprise and flash of a 00 Buck defense load, right?

He never mentioned penetration

 

[ArmedBear]

Why #4 Birdshot as my choice for 1st round ???

Because your neighborhood has had a lot of vicious pheasant attacks lately?

You Do Not Always control when/where OTHER LOVED ONES are when you may have to end a deadly threat !!!

That's true. So you're all ready to injure or blind them when such a threat occurs?

If you need in-the-moment control of what you hit, use a bullet. DON'T USE SHOT of any size. Shot patterns are not bullets.

 

[JShirley]

There are recorded cases of deer hunters getting hit COM with a 12 ga. SLUG and walking back to their car and driveing to the hospital !!!

So what? There are "recorded cases" of taking hits with 40mm and surviving.

There are also MANY recorded cases of people who DRT when hit by a single round of birdshot.

While there are MANY MORE cases of people who were not only not DRT with birdshot, many of them didn't even sustain enough injury to go to the hospital. I am aware of instances of recklessness with birdshot (I wasn't there), where close-range peripheral hits were just picked out of the arm. A similar hit with 00 would have rendered the limb unusuable. I also know of another instance where irresponsible behavior resulted in a very close birdshot discharge to abdomen. They walked out (a near thing, evidently, but no long-term consequence, and the injured could still have been a deadly threat if desired).

I don't love buckshot, but using small birdshot for HD is, IMO, irresponsible. If you really want shallower penetration, and are willing to accept the liability of multiple projectiles, at least use something like T or BBB shot that you've properly patterned and practiced with.

John

 

[TomADC]

There was a case here in downtown San Diego where a pawn shop was being robbed and the police show up in the middle of it, big shoot out, the pawn shop had a second floor and the perp took a stand at the end of the hallway on the 2nd floor, a SD police officer emptied a 12 ga riot gun down the hallway it wasn't very long and ended up hitting the perp with a couple of pellets in the arm, heat of the moment I'm sure, this was the mid 60's I'm ther police are much better trained today so this wouldn't happen, but a lot of us are in the same boat as the police officer back in the 60's.
Point being I guess is you can miss with 00 buck at short distances.

 

[oneounceload]

injuring a friendly.

***? You live in a war zone in another country? Or just play too many video games or what, exactly?....Family, friends, neighbors........OK, friendly?.....geez

Use birdshot if you want to.......it MAY or MAY NOT work.......ask Cheney's lawyer buddy how that did........

 

[Guvnor]

Penetration aside, with an ounce load of #4 or #6 shot were still talking something like 1300 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. While not the most effective choice for defense, birdshot is far from being useless. Provided we are talking about across-the-room distances.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

Thats right. "Any firearm far surpasses the value of throwing rocks..." Can't remember who said that, maybe Cooper but if we have the ability to get something that actually works, then lets use it.

 

[Gryffydd]

Penetration aside

i.e. The single method by which firearms inflict damage aside...

were still talking something like 1300 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

Not exactly. We are talking about (7ft/lbs x ~170).
Which no matter how you slice it...is still no projectile that carries more than 7ft lbs.

 

[ArmedBear]

Gryffydd is right.

Pellets hit the target INDIVIDUALLY. Each one has very little energy.

Imagine what an ounce projectile with 1300 ft-lbs. of energy would do to a quail. And yet, when you hit it with a load of #6 shot, you can take it home and eat it.

 

[Al Thompson]

AB, if you hit that quail at 20 feet, all you get is feathers. Even with #9 shot.