Birdshot Lethality (story)

[357wheelgunner]

A lot of people load up with birdshot for defense in the house, thinking that it would be enough to stop a criminal without as much risk of going through walls and injuring a third party. This got me to thinking about a story I read in Reader's Digest a few years ago. The story was something like this:

Two young boys, something like 8 and 10, would wait for their parents to leave the farm so that they could play with their dad's guns. The knew where the key to the safe and ammo locker were. One would carry the .270 deer rifle, and the other would carry the 12 gauge shotgun. While they were loading up the guns to head off into the woods, the younger boy discharged the shotgun, loaded with birdshot, into his brother's back. The boys, not wanting to get in trouble, tried to take care of the wounded brother themselves. He got into the shower and washed as much blood and pellets off as he could, but kept bleeding. He went to the hospital and survived.

I dont remember too much of the story, just the weapons, ages, and that one was shot in the back with birdshot and survived.

If an 10 year old boy can survive a point blank shot to the torso with birdshot, do you really think you will stop a 6'6" 300lb ogre of a man during a home invasion with birdshot? This small kid was still able to jump in the shower, and survived a trip to the hospital! I have my doubts, and will continue to load up with 00 buck for in the house. What do you all think of this? Do you know anyone whose been shot with a light bird load?

 

[JohnBT]

Do I know someone? No, but many years ago when I was 5 my father, uncle and grandfather killed a medium black bear at contact distance with #6 high brass from two 12s and a 20. Yes, it took a bit of reloading and my grandfather's farm dog took a beating, but the bear died in the little creek on the mountainside above the orchard.

John

 

[Dave McCracken]

At my last penal institution was one rather sickly individual who had been shot with birdshot at contact range. He was a dealer who let an associate get too close to his shotgun. Ye associate shot him in the belly. The cops locked him up after he spent 18 months in the hospital. Despite a 5000 calorie a day diet, he was starving to death, no intestines left. He described the loads he kept in his shotgun as "Duck Loads". He should have ducked that load....

Another worthy at the MD House of Correction was confined to a wheelchair. He had tried to shoot it out with a deputy armed with a shotgun and buck. Bad idea....

Both these individuals were weak and defenseless in places where that was a very bad thing. Outright death at the time of shooting might have been more merciful....

 

[mbs357]

Has anyone had the guys from Box of Truth shoot .12 ga bird shot?
*looks*
Doesn't look like it.

 

[hightech]

Ideal Shot

The ideal shot for defense is #4. The pellets .25 cal and you will get the maximum number thus the maximum total weight of shot. 00 buck will be .30 cal but less pellets thus less total weight. #4 will give you the maximum total energy per shell.

 

[ACP230]

I saw a friend shoot through the rear quarter panel of a junk car with a load of birdshot from a 20 gauge side by side. The car was upside down in a little clearing in the woods next to the trail we were walking/hunting on.

The shot made about a two-inch hole in the sheet metal. Just a few pellets were outside the hole. They were in a small cresent below it and a little to one side. The distance was around 20 feet.

I think anyone hit with a load of shot like that at that distance would be DOA on the scene, or at the hospital.

 

[iamkris]

There are good data in literature on performance of shotgun loads. The attached has some good studies that seem to make sense to me. http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

In general, they say that birdshot makes nasty but "superficial" wounds (I'd still not like to be hit by a blast). O, OO and OOO buck is devastating but presents serious concerns about overpenetration indoors. The comprimise view held that #1 buck (usually around 13 pellets of .30 cal balls in 12 ga) give good penetration, plenty of pellets, doesn't overpenetrate. YMMV

 

[Fred Fuller]

Before we were in high school, one of my friends shot a fox with one barrel from a 12 ga. SXS loaded with 00 buckshot while on a deer drive. Knocked the fox down but didn't kill it. Thinking to save ammo, he bashed the fox with the butt of the gun- which then discharged its other barrel into the middle of his right thigh at near contact range. He almost bled to death, his right leg is still several inches shorter than his left, but he is still very much alive.

A couple of years later two of my distant cousins were dove hunting in a field bordered by a ditch that was deep enough to stand in. One was in the ditch, the other standing nearby on the bank. The one in the ditch fired at a passing bird just as his brother appeared over the edge of the ditch, and the shot struck the boy in the head, killing him instantly.

A couple of decades later, i was working EMT/Ambulance in Montgomery, AL. We were called out on a shooting. It took place in the parking lot at a local night spot, the victim had inflamed the ire of a jealous husband and got shot three or four times at close range with a shotgun loaded with birdshot. The victim was DRT, after we bagged him the fire department hosed what was left off the asphalt.

I have heard of instances where people who tried to commit suicide with a shotgun failed even though they shot themselves at contact range. I know of a couple of cases where people have shot themselves _again_ immediately after failing to kill themselves on the first attempt.

NO WEAPON THAT CAN BE CARRIED AND FIRED BY ONE HUMAN BEING WORKING ALONE IS A 100% GUARANTEED INSTANT ONE SHOT STOPPER. Nothing. Don't care what it is, don't care what it is loaded with. Incapacitating human targets requires two essential things: PLACEMENT and PENETRATION. Fail at either and you risk not stopping an assailant, fail at both and the odds against a stop go up significantly, succeed at both and you might STILL not get a one-shot stop, though your odds of doing so are better.

Shotguns are not magic wands. They ARE better stoppers than anything else available according to available statistics, but they too require PLACEMENT and PENETRATION to stop. No matter what they are loaded with.

lpl/nc

 

[Gordon]

Was a local low life called"shot gun steve" who trying to commit suicide in his early 20's just blew his face off with 7 1/2 bird shot Steve OD'd a couple years back, but not before "someone" telling him he shoulda used a slug!

 

[Remington788]

No matter what you use (bird or buck), you still have to aim.

 

[P95Carry]

Must admit - I had been led to believe that at close quarters.... the shot mass was in effect just one large cluster of ''projectile''. No time to spread.

I recall a suicide pic where a guy had usaed a 12G ... not sure what load but - seeing as it was I imagine, in his mouth .... his head was splattered all over the wall behind! Nasty.

#4 Buck is IMO a good choice but I also consider BB size.... 0.180" (4.57mm)

 

[Car Knocker]

I would hardly call Reader's Digest a definitive and reliable source of information on weapons efficacy.

 

[GooseGestapo]

As a retired peace officer with 25yrs on the job, 22 as a conservation officer/hunter ed instructor, I've seen/investigated a number of "shooting" incidents involving shotguns. Most involved birdshot or buckshot. Size ranged from #8 to OOO. Ranges from barrel contact to 40+yds.

Angle of impact, distance, shot size, gauge, load mass, choke,victims age/size, ect. all are variable factors and no two wounds were the same.

(Don't ask me how many, ect. as between the ones I was directly involved with, or assisted, or reviewed the case for DA's, fellow or subordinate officers, or "proof" reading reports, or just "Gee Whiz")........ dozens!!!

Some of the more remarkable.....

1979; I was a rookie officer and responded with training officer to a call of a domestic disturbance, second call reported shot fired. Arrived to find wife had shot deranged husband in forehead with Rem 870-SA (comp.skeet gun) with load of #8's. Range approx. 3 feet. Pattern centered forehead, 2" spread. Victims head was a "bag of jelly" with mush oozeing from wound. NOT PRETTY !

1980; Perpertrator was fleeing State Trooper and attempted to run/ram a police road block. Attempted to "navigate" staggered vehicle "gauntlet" at higher than manuvering speed and collided with two vehicles. Subject "attempted" to exit disabled vehicle with an H&R .38 S&W in hand. 27 pellet load of #4 buck at 37feet at approx. 20deg. angle to car window took out window, with several pellet impacts to car roof, (1974 Buick Electra), side of door, and door/window frame centering the window. Hits to Perp.........ZERO!; however, it took surgeon 4 hours to remove all the glass fragments from the perp, and he has what appears to be scars from a near fatal small pox infection.

1980; Attempted bank robbery at bank under surveillance by local fugitive squad resulted in shots exchanged by perp and officers attempting to take him down as he fled the building. Initial shots all missed (both sides!). Perp turned as he ran firing a shot while looking back "over his shoulder". Return shot by officer with 1-7/8oz of BB from I/C choke was fired at distance of approx 80yds. Five BB pellet struck perp. Four were superficial, one struck under ridge of eyebrow, penetrated skull, and perp was DRT.

FWIW; a load of #4 birdshot at under 10yds will ruin your day. Two out of Three victims didn't survive. A fellow officer took a load of #4's to groin from 80feet from a turkey hunter w/extra-full choke, and almost didn't live to see another day. He will never walk without a cane and fortunately had grandchildren already on the way.

1987; A dope deal gone bad resulted in victim being shot at distance of 40 feet with 9 pellet load of 00-buck. Victims leg had to be amputated below the knee. Shotgun was a stolen Win. mod1300, taken from an off duty officers patrol vehicle in a burglary...... perps were after the radio! Load was what was in it when it was stolen 2yrs earlier. Perp attempted to claim it was a "hunting accident", until he and "buddy" who claimed to have had the accident were both charged with deer hunting at night, felony possession of narcotics, felony criminal negligent use of a firearm. "Buddy" decided to spill the beans when he found out he would only face misdemeanor charges of marijuana possession if he told the truth.

Statistics* show that most fatal hunting accidents involve shotguns (simple percentages), and that distance from shooter to victim is under 10 feet. And finally, most hunting accidents are self inflicted (over fifty percent). * North American Assoc. of Hunter Ed. Instructors. (IAHEA)

Don't confuse lethality with ability to incapacitate with a single shot. Nothing is better than a 20ga or larger shotgun at ranges under 21feet. The last 250yrs of history has born this out.

Ideal weapon is one that has a high rate of incapacitation, but limited lethality. Read---- "shotgun"!
Nothing is 100% effective, even nuclear weapons, beyond a certain distance.
At least according to a family aquaintance when I was a lad, whose job was assessing/targeting nuclear weapons!

Besides that, it (shotguns, and nuclear weapons) also has the intimidation effect that can preclude the neccessity of it's use!

Food for Thought!!!

 

[SUE ROVR]

Can someone show me one instance of someone using a weapon in self defense in a house where the overpenetrated bullet killed someone outside the house?

00 buck magnum here.

 

[MidnightHour]

Sue, I don't believe the worry is the bullet overpenetrating and hitting someone OUTSIDE the house, but what about people who live in apartments or have children in the next room? I can see overpentration being a big factor in a situation like that.

 

[c_yeager]

Can someone show me one instance of someone using a weapon in self defense in a house where the overpenetrated bullet killed someone outside the house?

It wasnt a defensive shooting but, we had a case around here a few years back where some idiots discharged a shotgun (cheap single barrel variety) into the floor of their apartment, killing a little girl sleeping in the unit below. I believe the shooter was charged with manslaughter. I don't recall hearing what the shotgun was loaded with at the time.

 

[Archangel]

Here is a pretty good look at how different shotgun loads perform in gelatin.

Note that #8 birdshot penetrates about 4 inches. Which can kill you, but is not exactly an ideal defense load.

 

[cookekdjr]

A man I prosecuted for murder used a shotgun to kill a drug dealer. He shot the dealer one time with a break-action single barrel 12 gauge. I forget the exact shot size, but it was birdshot
It was a one-shot kill from 20 yards. Dealer never made it out of the yard. Bad guy pled to manslaughter and will be out in 13-15 years.

I also prosecuted a man for shooting his brother with 00 buckshot. He used a winchester 1300 pump (I think- its been a few years). Fortunately, bad guy was drunk so his aim was off. A few bullets ricocheted off the ground and hit his brother in the abdomen. They failed to penetrate deeply and either fell out by themselves or were taken out in the ER with a local anesthetic.
In this case, bad guy got probation b/c his lawyer was friends with the judge. I was pretty angry cause bg had also shot at his little nieces and nephews, too, but I was the only one who seemed to care.
Oh well, at least no one died...that time.

 

[cookekdjr]

Note that #8 birdshot penetrates about 4 inches. Which can kill you, but is not exactly an ideal defense load.
Problem is, they make about a hundred different wounds at the same time, so you leek blood like a lawn sprinkler (and that's in the places that aren't blown off).
Rule of thumb: Shotgun blast = death.

 

[41 Redhawk]

Two boys shooting clay birds with their grand father. The older shoots the younger (8) in the head. My wife, working in the ER, will never forget that young man's death.

 

[foghornl]

Smallest I feed my shotgun for HD purposes is #4 Buck shot.

I have some #4, #6, #7-1/2 #8 for other purposes, though. A 3" #4 Turkey load [2 OZ of #4] would be a serious choice, too methinks.

 

[mjb]

I prefer low recoil buckshot because I can shoot it accuratly in my Ithaca 37 police special. I feel that birdshot comming out of a barrel that isn't a full choke will not have much of an impact on someone who is under the influence of alcohol or narcotics.

 

[Chief101]

I worked a shooting 12 or so years ago. The BG arrived at a hang out for the local drunks, on the bank of the river. He was "one of the boys" and no one knows what set him off. But, he got out with a .22 revolver in each hand and starting shooting at people. One of the guys lived there in an old school bus, went into the bus and came out with a 20ga. single shot. When the BG raised the .22 to shoot at him, the fellow shot him under the armpit with a load of either 6's or 8's, don't remember the load 'cept it was his squirrel gun. The BG was DRT. Crime lab said the shot had traveled thru the armpit and took out the top of his heart. BTW........no charges were filed.

 

[444]

I have seen perhaps a dozen shootings with a shotgun. Most of them were with birdshot. A couple were at an extreme range and the person was alive and well with some supreficial pellets under the skin.
Every other one resulted in almost instant death. A shotgun is a very serious weapon.
I can easily belive that someone could be shot at contact distance with a shotgun and live to tell about it. Once again, it all comes down to shot placement. You have to hit the vital organs and cause the person to rapidly bleed out. Period. End of story. There is no magic excaliber that is going to work any other way. If you don't hit the vital organs, the person is either going to not die, or they are going to take awhile to do it.
Hit someone COM with a shotgun at a reasonable range and the next thing they know, they are heading toward the white light.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

357wheelgunner, I found your recounting of the story and subsequent interpretation to be interesting. The story you told was not matched by your interpretation.

For example, in the interpretation you said the boy was shot at point black range, but no distance was given in the story. As an aside, do you know what point blank range means? Point blank is where they trajectory of the shot crosses the line of sight for the sights. There can be 2, by the way, one where the shot climbs to meet the sight alignment and again when the round drops back into sight alignment. For example, .223 in an AR15 will have point blank distances at about 25 and 200 yards.

Given the sight radius line of sight of most shotguns is only slightly higher than the barrel, the first point black distance is nearly contact distance. At that distance, bird and buck shot both perform more like a slug than as shot. Why? Because the shot will still be together in the shot cup when entering the skin.

To denote the ineffectiveness of the round, you said the injured boy jumped into the shower. Nothing in the story suggests whether he could jump or not.

The Duck Island Murderer used bird shot.
http://www.capitalcentury.com/1939.html

Another murder...
http://www.silentwitness.net/newsletter_archive/news121302.htm

Note that #8 birdshot penetrates about 4 inches. Which can kill you, but is not exactly an ideal defense load.

Sorry, but lethality often isn't the only criterion for a home defense round. As noted, things like over penetration are of concern as well.

While not penetrating deep, and as noted that it makes lots of wounds, such wounds are often substantial enough to produce sufficient bleeding out so as to cause a loss of blood pressure and then death.