Black MZ

[beag_nut]

It's been a few months since Black MZ was announced by Alliant. Has anyone actually tried it yet? If so, from whom did you get it? I am having no luck finding it in CT.
Thanks

 

[MCgunner]

Not any around here, yet. They list it in Cabelas. Can order it if and when I make another order. Figured to do that. Won't be until after Christmas for ME, though, as I'm a little tight right now. I MIGHT be able to get to a Bass Pro or something before Christmas, don't know.

 

[arcticap]

I saw 3-4 lbs. of it on the shelf at Cabela's in East Hartford, CT on Monday night. You may want to call first to make sure that they still have some if you plan on going there.
It's said to be made for Alliant by American Pioneer Powder so there may be some similarity between the two.

 

[Lunie]

.
It's said to be made for Alliant by American Pioneer Powder so there may be some similarity between the two.

Or so goes the rumor.

The address written on the MSDS for Black MZ is Radford, VA.

APP's production facility is in Colorado, and they have offices in Florida.

The MSDS address isn't conclusive by any means, but it ought to lend some weight that this is NOT American Pioneer with a new label, and NOT made by American Pioneer.

So what's in Radford?

"ATK Commercial Products – Alliant Powder
Radford, VA"

 

[frontiergander]

Incorrect, it is American Pioneer powder and repackaged in a new bottle with a new label. Supposedly it goes through better screening for consistency. Its very slow and inconsistent however.

 

[Lunie]

Incorrect, it is American Pioneer powder and repackaged in a new bottle with a new label. Supposedly it goes through better screening for consistency. Its very slow and inconsistent however.

And I ask again for PROOF.

 

[arcticap]

It appears that the MSDS for American Pioneer Powder isn't available.
Comparing the two MSDS's may provide more info. & a better basis of proof.

http://www.shootersforum.com/muzzleloaders/69095-americn-pioneer-powder-msds.html

As the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding...or in the powder.

 

[beag_nut]

Thank you arcticap, for the word on it's being in East Hartford. I will definitely go there when I get the chance, but I will call them first.
Thanks again!

 

[Lunie]

Since people claim it is all sort of things...

I've read that it is everything from an evolution or re-brand of Black Mag and/or APP, or that it is made by APP, etc. If I looked enough I could probably find someone who claims it is just Bullseye with fillers. (I'd say an evolution of Trail boss, but that is an IMR powder. Oh, wait... Rumors don't need to be based on any facts to be spread. So my rumor could be that it's a new evolution of Trail Boss...)

I suppose I could start my own rumor that it is made with bat guano, hairspray, and kitty litter... If I repeat it enough, will that one be believable too?



Therefore, when I see claims like this, I ask for proof. And so far, I have found ZERO. Just claims and assumptions.

If anyone has some concrete evidence, I'd love to see it. I may not be looking to buy the stuff anyway, but I would like to satisfy my curiosity.

"Show me."

 

[arcticap]

I've read that it is everything from an evolution or re-brand of Black Mag and/or APP, or that it is made by APP, etc.

I believe that the speculation regarding it being a direct replacement for Black Mag3 was before the new product was released and hit the shelves. Folks were wishfully thinking that it was going to be like Black Mag3 powder due to the plant explosion and possible transfer of its formula to a new manufacturer.
But now that it has hit the shelves and there was a magazine article about it, folks have learned that it's a form of APP.
FWIW APP also made the Goex Pinnacle powder until it was discontinued.
But I can't prove that right now!

 

[frontiergander]

American Super Powder is what it is.

 

[45-70 Ranger]

Regardless of who really makes it, I'm wondering about it myself. I don't fall into the rumor mill, but would like to know how it performs. Has anyone bought some and use it yet here?

 

[Lunie]

American Super Powder is what it is.

Repeating it proves nothing, sorry.

Coincidentally, I did some searching for "Alliant Black MZ", and lo and behold, I find thread after thread on a whole slew of different forums, each with comments from username variants of "frontiergander".

Seems as though you might be the original source of, and the most vehement believer in what is no more than a myth at this point.



I'll repeat my challenge. PROVE IT.

 

[frontiergander]

You can lead a mule to water but ya can't make it drink!! go ask randy wakeman, as much as i dislike the dude, even he will tell you its rebadged american pioneer that gets slightly better quality control in granule size. BlackMZ was supposed to be Black Dot but once the Black mag plant blew up, they had to get someone to fill the cans with something. You don't think Hodgdon was going to fill their cans do you? American Pioneer needed something to help their bad name out. Alliant however did wrong with using this stuff.

45-70, heres one report,
http://frontiermuzzleloadin.powerguild.net/t2591-aliant-black-mz

Notice the silica packet in the pic?? American Pioneer is the ONLY company that does this.

 

[arcticap]

I noticed that the label doesn't specify the granulation like the other APP powders.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoo...780?WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104792580%3Bcat104701680

 

[frontiergander]

Its granulated as a very bulky 2f. You can forget about using it in the Lyman brand traditional sidelocks, 2f American pioneer wont even work in mine and the black mz is even bulkier.

 

[Lunie]

You can lead a mule to water but ya can't make it drink!! go ask randy wakeman, as much as i dislike the dude, even he will tell you its rebadged american pioneer that gets slightly better quality control in granule size. BlackMZ was supposed to be Black Dot but once the Black mag plant blew up, they had to get someone to fill the cans with something. You don't think Hodgdon was going to fill their cans do you? American Pioneer needed something to help their bad name out. Alliant however did wrong with using this stuff.

45-70, heres one report,
http://frontiermuzzleloadin.powerguild.net/t2591-aliant-black-mz

Notice the silica packet in the pic?? American Pioneer is the ONLY company that does this.

I see you have reposted that "cvilorio" post on many boards, sometimes with or without the acknowledgment that it isn't yours.

Silica packet? That's proof? I think the other sub powder manufacturers would be doing themselves a favor if they did it too! See: Triple Se7en, Pyrodex, etx.

Even a horse knows when not to drink the water. And what you are passing around is kool-aid.

If you haven't got proof of your claim, I for one will not swallow your rumor.

 

[arcticap]

This thread below indicates that in a recent arcticle in Petersen's Hunting, it was clearly stated that Black MZ is made by APP.
Note that the poster said that he personally read the Petersen's article in Post #10.
An eyewitness account is proof enough for me.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/352685-alliant-black-mz.html

 

[frontiergander]

Arcticap, my brother in law has that articles at his house. I will bring it home with me and get some pics so others can read it. They were pushing through crud rings at shot 5 or 7 i forget.

As for Lunie, if you feel that you won't accept any ones response and just act like a child, don't ask questions.

The reason T7, Pyrodex do not use Silica packets is because they do not suck up moisture like American Pioneer powder does. Go to a cabelas or bass pro in michigan, i went looking through 12 or 13 cans of APP powder and couldn't find one that wasn't a big clump of powder.

We don't have the clumping issue in colorado due to the low humidity so i never really had a problem with APP other than the reverse "at the muzzle" crud ring.

 

[Lunie]

I will accept responses that actually verify something.

So far, I haven't gotten any. If I were a child, I would accept any spoon fed lie. Instead, I ask for proof of what is claimed. I fail to see the problem.

And the more I ask for proof, the more resistance I get. Wonder why?

C'mon, this should be easy. I want you to prove me wrong. I am asking you to prove me wrong. I've never seen someone so convinced of a fact and yet so unwilling to prove it.

 

[45-70 Ranger]

Oi-vey, I think I'll just stick with my own BP and not try to find this stuff. Sounds too much like a problem from the range reports on FrontierMuzzloader and the way folks are talking about all the other stuff as well........sounds like I'd be better off using Pyrodex if I want a sub for my BP. Thanks, but no thanks.....I sure don't want a "conflict producing powder" on my shelf

Wade

 

[Lunie]

Oi-vey, I think I'll just stick with my own BP and not try to find this stuff. Sounds too much like a problem from the range reports on FrontierMuzzloader and the way folks are talking about all the other stuff as well........sounds like I'd be better off using Pyrodex if I want a sub for my BP. Thanks, but no thanks.....I sure don't want a "conflict producing powder" on my shelf

Wade

Go ahead and try some if you want.

At this point, I think I will too, out of spite. I don't even have a want for substitute powders.



I finally found a Petersen's hunting article (excerpt) online! The funny part being that it doesn't support the claim that it is "Rebranded American Pioneer Powder".

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-271612108.html

The excerpt is seen below, with my emphasis added.

"New kid on the blackpowder block: low corrosion and easy clean-up are two of the many benefits of this new offering.(MUZZLELOADING)


Petersen's Hunting
November 1, 2011 | Guthrie, J. | Copyright

Every year we see a handful of new rifles and a truck-load of doodads aimed at muzzleloader hunters, but rarely does a new propellant come down the pike. The biggest reason is the difficulty of improving on what is already on store shelves. The latest generation of black-powder substitutes is pretty good, and spending the time and money to research and develop a new product is a bridge too far for most companies. Alliant Powder figured it could do better, so it put in the work and recently introduced a new propellant called Black MZ, but it was a long and tough road.

Dick Quesenberry, Alliant's canister marketing manager and a long-time muzzleloader shooter, told me about plans for this new powder four years ago and promised some pretty unique qualities."


Regardless, I'm still waiting for some proof about it being made at the APP facilities, or any proof that this is a re-branded APP product. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

 

[45-70 Ranger]

If its a case of "Bet, anty up, check, or fold" I think I'll pass and go find another game. I'm walking away from this one..........

 

[Lunie]

If its a case of "Bet, anty up, check, or fold" I think I'll pass and go find another game. I'm walking away from this one..........

Reminds me of the song "The Gambler".

No need to leave the thread, but if you do, happy trails, and keep your powder dry.

 

[arcticap]

I finally found a Petersen's hunting article (excerpt) online! The funny part being that it doesn't support the claim that it is "Rebranded American Pioneer Powder".

At the end of the article excerpt it is clearly stated:

To read the full text of this article and others like it, try us out for 7 days, FREE!

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-271612108.html

If someone choses not to buy the magazine then why would they complain about not believing what others have claimed that it says?
If a footnote is provided as a reference then read the footnote or otherwise prove that the footnote is wrong.