Black Rifles for idiots (like me)

[AcceptableUserName]

so I have very little experience with black rifles. Never taken one down. I've only shot one on a few occasions and prefer it over the AK in that realm. When the time comes, I'll be looking to purchase a couple rifles...and want to know which one is for me, how to shop for them, how best to get used to mainting/upgrading them etc...here's what I know so far...


as much as I'd like the AK, I think given the fact that a NICE Ak is running about the same as a pretty nice .223/5.56, I couldn't justify not going with the latter. They just feel too good when shooting. I want a dead-on reliable weapon...I don't need all the crazy bells and whistles and TACTic00l hype of the latest Wilson Combat/Novekse/Sabre/Sig 556 hype wave...I would like a primary and a backup weapon in nearly the same configuration...The ability to mount a nice optic but easily switch to good ol' iron sights when and if the batteries die...a good comfortable sling set up and the right ammo...also I will need to be able to take these down and reassemble at will, and know how to sight in an optic or dial in the iron sights...


any tips on getting started here? Any particular guns you'd recommend? Honestly I'm interested in the standard Colt M4, mostly because a government issue weapon seems like the best, no-frills choice here to me and from what I've seen it isn't terribly expensive in relation to the boutique brands like Noveske, Robinson, Sabre....I've also heard a lot of people that hate the Colt guns with a passion, but if they were so bad you'd figure you'd hear more about it from people who've actually used one with their life on the line...


I should add I might be getting a Doublestar A3 here soon, but as far as I know it's 223 only...any feedback on the doublestar? It's not a for sure thing, but I may end up with it. At any rate, I want something a little more substantial when it comes down to it...

 

[Boris Barowski]

I really like my Sabre Defence...

 

[Birddog1911]

CMMG, Delt-Ton, Double Star, Sabre, DPMS, Rock River Arms, etc., etc...

Seriously, you can get a good rifle out of any of those. Look at AIM Surplus.

 

[Shadow Man]

Well, first, it is "tactical" not "TACTic00l". Some of us who use tactics and tactical equipment in our everyday lives may take offense. If it is not for you, then it is not for you, but kindly refrain from deriding a system because of a skewed image. This is the High Road, not The Gutter. Thanks.

Now, if you want a plane-jane AR style with no rails, Colts are a good way to go, albeit a bit pricey. DPMS makes a very decent inexpensive AR style in just about every legal barrel length imaginable, many with no rails, just standard handguards.

As for accessories, a good 3-point sling will serve you well for most foreseable scenarios. Learn to shoot the iron's first, then graduate to an optic system. There are hundreds of optic manufacturers out there: most fixed power or low variable power (1-4x) should serve you just fine. Do a little research, shop around and actually get your hands on one (and look through it!) before you take the plunge. Like most things, you will get what you pay for, but no need to break the bank. A good $300-$600 optic should last a long, long time and serve you well.

 

[benzy2]

The Colt is a decent way to go. It is a good gun. Maybe not the most gun you can get for that money, but still something very few people are disappointed with. The real question would be what your use is for these rifles? If they are something you are trusting your life with there are a few corners you will want to not be cut. If you aren't going to abuse the rifle and demand 100% reliability through the worst conditions possible you open up to quite a few more brands and cut prices a bit as well. So what do you want to use this for?

As for the Doublestar, I don't think any AR barrels are truly cut for .223 and not designed to handle both 5.56 and .223 though the best thing to do would be to call Doublestar and ask. I haven't heard any issues with Doublestar rifles blowing due to using 5.56, though that doesn't mean the potential isn't there. I would call them though.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

i hate to come out and say it, but, in place of more silliert erms (imo0, the rifles would be for "peace of mind". It's just a nice thing to have. If I had them, I'd familiarize myself with them, sight them in, set them up accrodingly, clean and store.

 

[stchman]

I too think the tacticool cr@p is kind of silly. I have seen many an AR weighted down with tacticool junk to the point it added about 5 lbs to the rifle.

What did it give them? Not much IMO. I light would be a nice thing, but all the other junk is ridiculous.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

LMT or BCM. Colt like quality at better prices.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

the only thind id add would be a nice light and optic.

 

[shootr]

What Shadowman said.

I'm pretty much like you sound - a casual / sport shooter and hunter. My eyes aren't as good as they were, so eventually I'll add a 1 - 4 ish scope and call it a day. For now, I'm good with the irons.

The 3-point sling works well for me. Nothing else on my AR and I like it that way. Then again - I'm not breaking down doors going after bad guys, nor do I envision any situations where other accessories will be needed.

A comment made by a former SF friend in the service has always stuck in my mind. This was 25+ years ago and we were talking .45 vs 9mm. He simply said that if there was ever a bad situation and he had a .45 but needed a 9mm, he could get him one easy enough... An interesting and telling outlook that I've adopted ever since. True and a heck of a lot less expensive.

 

[Hatterasguy]

My friends Colt M4 is a sweet little rifle, can't say anything bad about it. Buy one it will serve you well.


Having said that after shooting my Sig he is shopping for one. The Colt M4 is probably a tick more accurite, but we think the Sig shoots better. If your not dead set on an AR you might want to try a competing design.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

I just want a couple on hand for (insert scenario here)....



I'm not going to lie. it won't be a sport gun, or a target gun...these days i'm primarily shooting .22 lr or MAYBE 12 gauge low base...thats it! everything else is just too scarce and pricey for me to part with. i'll hoard .45 hardball even. i HATE shooting my sig. it's excruciating. and that sucks too, because shooting is, like all of us i'm sure, my absolute favorite thing to do. it's going to be a break-in, set-up and forget peace-of-mind item. a Simple, durable, reliable weapon that accepts any AR mags or .223 and pref 5.56 marked ammo, you know? I think Sig 5.56's look awesome and feel great, but I don't like proprietary guns, same reason I don't consider the Galil or Saiga in .223...

I guess one of the new Ruger AR's would be a consideration, I haven't done my homework on them....

if im goign to spend 2k on a gun, i want it to take ANY AR mag no questions asked. i'm also not a huge fan of Sig these days. I think they offer pretty poor cs and charge too much, kind of like HK lite. i will never part with my W. German P220, but I'm not likely to buy a new Sig firearm anytime soon.

 

[nalioth]

Beware the that where it

 

[MrCleanOK]

I think the biggest differences between mid-tier AR manufacturers (Stag, Bushmaster, DPMS, etc.) and top-tier AR manufactuerers (Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc.) are in the small stuff that you would never notice if you didn't know to look for it, and those little extra cost adders may or may not be worth it to different shooters. I'm talking about things like:
Properly staked carrier keys and end plates. Prevents gas key screws and castle nuts from coming loose under recoil.
High pressure and magnetic particle tested bolts and barrels. Proof that parts can withstand greater-than-normal stress and are free of surface defects which can cause fatigue failure.
Mil-spec barrel steel. Given the same manufacturing process, stronger and longer service life than lesser steels.
Black extractor spring inserts, 5 coil springs and o-rings. More reliable extraction, most important for rifles with carbine gas systems and short barrels.
Mil-spec receiver extensions. Rolled threads are stronger and less succeptible to fatigue failure than the cut threads on commercial buffer tubes.

I'm sure there's more, but this is the kind of little stuff that all adds up and makes a top-tier rifle more expensive. Is any of the above particularly important for a target/plinking/hunting rifle? Not really. It IS important if your primary reason for owning a rifle is to use it in a situation that puts your life at risk.

Weigh the merits of the technical specs against what you are willing to spend for them, and then make a decision you can feel good about. For what it's worth, building is cheaper than buying, and is the best way to guarantee you get what you want. Barring examples at both extremes of the quality scale, the only difference between stripped lower receivers is the roll-mark. Get the one with the picture you like most. The upper receiver is the half that's most important, so invest more heavily there.

 

[benzy2]

I'm sure there's more, but this is the kind of little stuff that all adds up and makes a top-tier rifle more expensive. Is any of the above particularly important for a target/plinking/hunting rifle? Not really. It IS important if your primary reason for owning a rifle is to use it in a situation that puts your life at risk.

More so when you put your life at risk day in and day out. Even for a bedside rifle these things don't mean near as much as to the guy who is using his rifle day in and day out.

 

[GunsBeerFreedom]

I know you said you wanted a nice AR, but I can't help but mention a Saiga. For around $500 (cheaper than ANY AR) you can get a 5.56 one converted and it'll run ya just fine.

 

[rskent]

Nalioth
Two questions for ya.
Do you believe that your piston gun is more accurate than my DI gun? I don’t mean "combat accurate". I mean good hits at distance.

Have you (not your buddy’s buddy) had a failure resulting from the DI gas system that wasn’t a direct result of you not maintaining your weapon?

Not trying to be a jerk, just asking
Steve

 

[stchman]

As far as accuracy I don't know if there is a difference between piston and DI. I do know piston rifles the bolt is far easier to clean and stays cooler as well.

 

[axxxel]

Is it just me or might it be a good idea to start off with an inexpensive .22lr rifle and a basic scope for some basic marksmanship/rifleman learning first? I mean, if you don't know how to zero a scope then there is so much to be learned about rifles that you don't need the AR to learn. Besides, the .22 will eat inexpensive ammo and be great for practice.

 

[Jed Carter]

In the AR quagmire there is good and bad, all are filthy after you are finished shooting. Except for match grade ARs, the SIG 556 shoots as good as any tactical, AR M4 clone, except it's bolt remains clean and cool under even heavy and rapid fire. Shoot 2-3 hundred rounds, there is carbon fouling all over the bolt on the AR, chamber too, SIG 556 clean. Change the Front sight on the SIG 556 and use any and all AR A3 sights. Looking for an AR is a Crap Shoot, I have a Wilson Combat M4 clone, buffer tube came loose durring firing, pin and spring came out jammed it tight. After around 1500 rounds the extractor would not work, changed it out, have not had a single miss step since. 3 years ago I picked up a used SIG 556 Trigger is so much better than even the Wilson Combat and will be better than 99.99% of Milspec triggers on an AR. Since 06 I have had the AR out of the big steel box only once, except to strip the Aimpoint sight off it. Either follow the heard or eat uncrapped on grass.

 

[smartshooter.45]

i agree axxxel. starting with a nice .22 would be an inexpensive way to learn rifle basics.

someone said in an earlier post:

As for the Doublestar, I don't think any AR barrels are truly cut for .223 and not designed to handle both 5.56 and .223 though the best thing to do would be to call Doublestar and ask. I haven't heard any issues with Doublestar rifles blowing due to using 5.56, though that doesn't mean the potential isn't there.

i have a double star star-15 M4. both the lower and the barrel are stamped .556. Doublestars are good to go with .556 and .223

 

[nalioth]

Nalioth
Two questions for ya.
Do you believe that your piston gun is more accurate than my DI gun? I don’t mean "combat accurate". I mean good hits at distance.

Have you (not your buddy’s buddy) had a failure resulting from the DI gas system that wasn’t a direct result of you not maintaining your weapon?

Not trying to be a jerk, just asking
Steve

I had a M16A2 to use over in Iraq. I learned how "reliable" it was very quickly. No "buddy's buddy who knew another buddy's buddy who had it happen to their buddy's buddy" knowledge here.

I currently don't own any AR15s (I have owned several off and on, but I just don't care for them).

 

[greyling22]

I called double star a few weeks ago to ask whether they were 223 or 5.56 and they said all their guns are chambered in 5.56. the cheapo on got (650 at budsguns) seemed very solid and shot fine. I'm sure there are better AR's out there, but they cost a lot more, and for shooting a couple hundred here and a couple hundred there I don't know that top of the line is needed. (WANTING is something else entirely)

Besides, I suspect that if I ever wind up in a situation where I have to fire hundred of rounds in a a firefight, I'm not going to make it anyway.

 

[inherentical]

I had a M16A2 to use over in Iraq. I learned how "reliable" it was very quickly. No "buddy's buddy who knew another buddy's buddy who had it happen to their buddy's buddy" knowledge here.

As an armorer in the Marine Corps I quickly learned that 99.99% of weapons malfunctions were due to operator error. Out of the hundreds of thousands of M16A2s I laid hands on during my time in I can honestly say only a few had legitimate problems. I suspect your issues with the platform are no different.

 

[christcorp]

I had the same concerns is buying a rifle recently. I wanted the .223/5.56; yet, I wanted the reliability/dependability of an AK. So I got, in my opinion, the best of both worlds. I bought a saiga. It's a "True" AK-47. Brand new; new parts (Unlike most Ak variants you see for sale which use used and QC rejected parts). Made on the same assembly line as the new military AK-47; in Russia. EXCEPT; I bought it chambered for .223/5.56. So I get the reliability/dependability of an AK-47 with the .223/5.56 caliber. And brand new is about $350. It comes imported as a "Sporting" rifle. Has a regular rifle stock. But for $50, you can put a pistol grip type stock on it. You can even adapt it cheaply to accept AR-15/M16 magazines or galil magazines. This could easily be a very long thread. Instead, I recommend looking at the Saiga .223 rifle. Best of both worlds.