Blue Brick
Member
I have a pre 1968 semi only tube feed Gill gun that will not full cycle the bolt back to reset the firing pin spring. The only 22 ammunition I have is Super X and Wildcat. Any suggestions? Is Super X and Wildcat weak?
Blow Back not cycling action - 22 LR Super X and Wildcat
- Thread starter Blue Brick
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Carl N. Brown
Member
"Gill gun" = Savage Model 6?
Has it been cleaned and lightly lubed?
Has it been cleaned and lightly lubed?
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Blue Brick
Member
High Standard A1041 aka Sears 25, its very clean.
BCRider
Member
Clean the receiver, bolt and firing pin channel out? I've used both of those ammo types before in semi auto pistols without any issue compared to some others. So likely it's the gun itself. And the most likely issue is an increase in drag from fouling and perhaps oiling too much.
Too much oil is just as bad as not enough. With too much you get viscous drag. Sort of like waving your hand underwater compared to in the air. And if the oil was added to free up the bolt from fouling it just makes the oil that much thicker and more viscous. So if you just keep oiling over top of the fouling that may be part of the issue.
in particular check that ejected brass slips in and out of the chamber freely. If it's binding figure out why.
Too much oil is just as bad as not enough. With too much you get viscous drag. Sort of like waving your hand underwater compared to in the air. And if the oil was added to free up the bolt from fouling it just makes the oil that much thicker and more viscous. So if you just keep oiling over top of the fouling that may be part of the issue.
in particular check that ejected brass slips in and out of the chamber freely. If it's binding figure out why.
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Blue Brick
Member
Works fine if I manually cycle the action and insert 1 cartridge at a time.
Yes. Oil is light. The bolt just won’t go back far enough after a shot is fired.
Yes. Oil is light. The bolt just won’t go back far enough after a shot is fired.
BCRider
Member
It may be that your recoil spring is hardening up with use and needs replacing. Lots of folks think that when springs get old and "worn out" that they become too soft. But the reality is that unless the spring is pushed into coil binding on a regular basis it's more normal for the steel wire to work harden and become STIFFER. With an older gun this may well be your situation.
If you can find any try some other similar ammo to double check. But I think you'll find that even if it does cycle with something like CCI Blazer or Federal 525 bulk that the ejection will be weak to the point of dribbling out. That's a sign that your recoil spring is too stiff.
The other option is to strip the gun down and see if there is anything inside that might be limiting the travel. Odder things have happened. And while inside check that the stuff that positions the bullet for the bolt to pick it up is clean and working correctly.
Something to check is that many such rifles use an internal hammer. The hammer is kicked back and then runs along a track on the bolt. Check that track for galling and ensure it has a smear of good gun grease on it. If it's too dry or has galled or worn or has some other issue it could be producing excess drag on the bolt.
With blowback rimfires it's all about ensuring that all sources of drag are minimized.
If you can find any try some other similar ammo to double check. But I think you'll find that even if it does cycle with something like CCI Blazer or Federal 525 bulk that the ejection will be weak to the point of dribbling out. That's a sign that your recoil spring is too stiff.
The other option is to strip the gun down and see if there is anything inside that might be limiting the travel. Odder things have happened. And while inside check that the stuff that positions the bullet for the bolt to pick it up is clean and working correctly.
Something to check is that many such rifles use an internal hammer. The hammer is kicked back and then runs along a track on the bolt. Check that track for galling and ensure it has a smear of good gun grease on it. If it's too dry or has galled or worn or has some other issue it could be producing excess drag on the bolt.
With blowback rimfires it's all about ensuring that all sources of drag are minimized.
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Blue Brick
Member
Nope its very strong.
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Blue Brick
Member
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Blue Brick
Member
Thanks I will try all suggestions.
Jackal
Member
Try CCI Minimags (when you can find some).
Steel Horse Rider
Member
I am puzzled why you asked...
BCRider
Member
If the ejection even with this ammo is strong and sends the empties out a good distance then it's puzzling. You say it can be cycled by hand and it works OK. You also mention that you "feed one round at a time". So I have to ask. You're hand feeding this through the ejection port or are you picking this round up from the internal magazine by pulling the bolt back fully?
If you're hand feeding it and it's ejecting strongly but won't pull up rounds from the magazine then I suspect something is stuck in the action to limit the bolt travel so it's not able to pick up the next round from the magazine. If it's able to pick up from the magazine but only if you hand cycle it then that is rather odd. Especially in light of the energetic ejection.
If you're hand feeding it and it's ejecting strongly but won't pull up rounds from the magazine then I suspect something is stuck in the action to limit the bolt travel so it's not able to pick up the next round from the magazine. If it's able to pick up from the magazine but only if you hand cycle it then that is rather odd. Especially in light of the energetic ejection.
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Blue Brick
Member
BCRider: I open the bolt and hand feed it into the chamber not using the tube magazine. If I use the magazine it will feed, but the firing spring (part 51) will not reset. Use of the magazine tube goes like this, empty chamber, pull back bolt, round feeds, fire, ejects the round, feeds new round, does not reset the firing spring in the process, I pull back bolt, ejects live round, feeds new round, resets the firing spring(from pulling it back), fire, and so on…
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Blue Brick
Member
??? Because I want it to work correctly.
Red Tornado
Member
Isn't that the rifle that functions as a semi-auto or a bolt action? You push the bolt handle in (or out) to allow it to function semi and the other way to function as a bolt action. Sounds like you've got it in bolt action mode.
RT
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BCRider
Member
AH.... Now we're getting somewhere!
I looked up and found a parts diagram at Numrich. It has a hammer but it's a sliding hammer instead of a pivoting hammer. It's still a hammer though.
It may be that something is dragging near the end of the bolt travel. So it ejects strongly but binds before it can travel back far enough to catch the hammer to reset. Does it feel like something gets tight near the rear travel limit of the bolt?
The next thing would be to check the internal action around the trigger and disconnector to see if something is worn or broken so that it's not holding the hammer back.
Consider that when you shoot it and the hammer fails to catch that you're holding the trigger down. So if the disconnector/interrupter parts are damaged it'll fail to hold the hammer back so that when you release the trigger it can let the hammer fall onto the sear. But when you cycle the bolt by hand you're not holding the trigger back so it can catch on the sear and hammer hooks.
The way to test for this is to stick a dummy, empty or plastic wall anchor into the chamber and pull the trigger. Then, while holding the trigger back the whole time cycle the bolt by hand. If I'm right in thinking that the disconnector/interrupter setup is the issue then the hammer won't catch and the gun won't be able to "fire" the next time you pull the trigger.
On the other hand if you dry fire it this way and then release the trigger before racking the bolt and it catches and fires that's because the disconnector/interrupter isn't part of the system. That's why it cycles and fires OK when you hand feed it but it fails when you try to feed from the magazine. It's because the disconnector/interrupter isn't working and it's letting the hammer follow down during the bolt cycling.
If you use a plastic wall anchor for this test and cut away the flange of the anchor where the extractor fits it won't pull the anchor out when you rack the bolt by hand. That'll make it much easier to run this test instead of having to find an extra hand to replace the wall anchor. You could also use a file to hog out a hunk of a spent casing to accomplish the same thing.
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Blue Brick
Member
Don’t think so..
Correct, holding the trigger down will not allow the hammer to reset, but I don’t hold it back when firing I release the trigger each time.
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Blue Brick
Member
As far as I know that is only for the Savage model.
BCRider
Member
Of course you release the trigger since it's a semi auto. But by the time you release the trigger the bolt has already returned to battery with a new round in the chamber. But if the disconnector/interrupter isn't functioning it lets the hammer follow the bolt.
To simulate what occurs when you actually shoot and the rifle cycles in the blink of an eye while you're still holding the trigger back you need to hold the trigger down and cycle the bolt manually as I described.
I'd be willing to bet you an "internet beer" that it won't set the hammer if you cycle the bolt while the trigger is held down. And of course you already know that if you pull the trigger, let it go and THEN cycle the bolt it does set the trigger.
But in each case different parts of the action are called into play. When you cycle it manually without the trigger held it catches the bolt on the regular trigger sear and hammer hooks. But when it cycles during actual shooting there's a secondary interrupter set of parts that hold the hammer back until you release the trigger far enough to "reset". That's where the hammer or some other part clicks into place to allow the trigger to then release the bolt normally instead of letting it fall back along with the bolt.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufac...A-1041SportKingSpecialDeluxe-38812.htm?page=1
I'm going strictly by the parts diagram at Numrich linked just above. I don't see any parts listed as a disconnector or hold back or anything else that suggests the part which performs the latching action to hold the hammer back until you release the trigger for the next pull. But I do see that the rocking part #28 which seems to be rocked by the trigger has two spring loaded plungers #5 and 18. I'm thinking that the bolt flies back along with the round bolt like hammer (#51) which catches on the back plunger #18. Then when you release the trigger it resets by dropping to the front plunger #5 which holds it until you pull the trigger again. If this turns out to be the case then it suggests that the plunger #18 is not lifting or has broken or something else has stuck it in place. OR..... I could be all wet about how the hold back and reset operates. The parts diagram isn't much to go by after all.
In any event what you described a few posts back about how it's messing up is a perfect description of what occurs when the hold back until you let go of the trigger can fail. So I strongly suspect it has zero to do with the ammo and everything to do with the parts located in that trigger assembly area related to how the hammer is held back as the bolt cycles.
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Blue Brick
Member
Everything looks as it should be…
Yesterday I poured solvent into the receiver and let it soak for a minute or so then I took a 45 caliber wire brush and brushed out the receiver all the way to the barrel. It wasn’t really dirty but its really clean now. I will try and test it later today one round at a time loaded through the magazine tube.
Yesterday I poured solvent into the receiver and let it soak for a minute or so then I took a 45 caliber wire brush and brushed out the receiver all the way to the barrel. It wasn’t really dirty but its really clean now. I will try and test it later today one round at a time loaded through the magazine tube.
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Blue Brick
Member
Ok went out today and tested it. No changes. Everything works except the firing pin will not set. By the way original manual states: “Hi-Speed only.” What is Hi-Speed? Does that apply to 22 shorts only or all 22?
http://www.histandard.info/manuals/sears/rfrifles/1276D150R.pdf
http://www.histandard.info/manuals/sears/rfrifles/1276D150R.pdf
BCRider
Member
I think you mean that the hammer won't set.
So it still works the same way then? If you hand cycle it it picks up, chambers and fires fine? But the round chambered by the bolt cycling from a shot doesn't set the hammer?
If this is the case then I'm about 99% sure that it's something stuck, worn or broken in the TRIGGER GROUP assembly. It's nothing to do with the bolt, hammer or ammo selection.
If you go back and look at the diagram from Numrich that I gave the link for above you'll see part #49 is the trigger group frame. All those little bits below #49 fit into the frame. And one of those is not working correctly.
So it still works the same way then? If you hand cycle it it picks up, chambers and fires fine? But the round chambered by the bolt cycling from a shot doesn't set the hammer?
If this is the case then I'm about 99% sure that it's something stuck, worn or broken in the TRIGGER GROUP assembly. It's nothing to do with the bolt, hammer or ammo selection.
If you go back and look at the diagram from Numrich that I gave the link for above you'll see part #49 is the trigger group frame. All those little bits below #49 fit into the frame. And one of those is not working correctly.
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