Blue Dot and Standard .45 Colt Load

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In reference to .45 Colt loads, I have read that a 270ish grain cast boolit on top of 12.5 grains of Blue Dot is considered a standard pressure load. One article in particular was written by Brian Pearce. Are there any factor information sources that support this data?

Alliant only shows this:

.45 Colt, 250 gr Speer LSWC, Brass-Winchester, OAL 1.6, Barrel 5.5", CCI 300, Blue Dot 12.9, 1,028 FPS

QUESTION: Does anyone dispute that this load is a standard pressure load for the .45 Colt (14,000 psi or less)?

Thank you
 
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I haven't shot that load with bullets heavier than 260 grs, but it does a darn nice job, both in the higher velocity and it's just as accurate as the old 9 gr of unique I've been shooting about a 1/2 century.
 
I notice the data does not come with extreme spreads or standard deviations. Gun writers are such shameless shills and corporate suck ups and don't provide the information needed to really evaluate their loads. The lazy buggers post group sizes based on three round strings and don't publish ES or SD's. I am of the opinion that Blue Dot is a piss poor powder for anything but magnum loads and jacketed bullets. I tested Blue Dot, admittedly only with 250 grain bullets, but the wide extreme spreads, very wide compared against Unique, tell me this powder is not a good application for this cartridge at standard pressures.

Blue Dot worked well in my 357 Magnum with jacketed bullets. With magnum loads and lead bullets, I got leading, severe leading. I tried Blue Dot in 38 Special, 45 ACP, 9mm. The higher the pressure the better it worked. It was awful in these low pressure applications.



Code:
[SIZE="4"]

5 1/2" USFA Rodeo 					
					
250 LRN (.452") 8.5 grs Unique  thrown, R-P cases, CCI300 primers					
12-May-02	T = 80°F				

Ave Vel =	855	 	 	 	
Std Dev =	16	 	 		
ES	59.91	 	 		
High	885.4		 		
Low	825.5		 		
Number Shots	12				


250 LRN (.452") 11.5 grs Blue Dot R-P cases, WLP					
11-Sep-05	T = 85 °F	shoots close to  point of aim acceptable accuracy			
					

Ave Vel =	845				
Std Dev =	48				
ES	183.6				
High	933.3				
Low	749.7				
N =	18				
					
					
					
250 LRN (.452") 12.0 grs Blue Dot R-P cases, WLP					
11-Sep-05	T = 85 °F	shoots close to  point of aim good accuracy			

Ave Vel =	904				
Std Dev =	44				
ES	149.6				
High	955.2				 
Low	806				 
N =	15				 
		[/SIZE]
[/QUOTE]
 
Alliant only shows standard pressure .45 Colt loads.

They have never published any +P .45 Colt load data.

They show 12.9 grains Blue Dot as a Max load with the Speer 250 LSWC.

Reduce 10% for a starting load of 11.6 grains and work up.

(But, Blue Dot is not a good powder choice for standard pressure .45 Colt.)

rc
 
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i notice the data does not come with extreme spreads or standard deviations. Gun writers are such shameless shills and corporate suck ups and don't provide the information needed to really evaluate their loads. The lazy buggers post group sizes based on three round strings and don't publish es or sd's. I am of the opinion that blue dot is a piss poor powder for anything but magnum loads and jacketed bullets. I tested blue dot, admittedly only with 250 grain bullets, but the wide extreme spreads, very wide compared against unique, tell me this powder is not a good application for this cartridge at standard pressures.

Blue dot worked well in my 357 magnum with jacketed bullets. With magnum loads and lead bullets, i got leading, severe leading. I tried blue dot in 38 special, 45 acp, 9mm. The higher the pressure the better it worked. It was awful in these low pressure applications.




[/size][/code]
[/quote]


+! on that. Blue Dot is Flaming Dirt!!

Unique or HP 38 go well with the 45 Colt.
 
Blue Dot is super and clean in high pressure, low capacity case applications. It is filthy and aweful for low pressure applications.
 
Interesting comments about how dirty bludot is. I've not noticed that in the several hundred rounds I've ran thru the 45 colt and 38-40. Good accuracy and velocity, but nothing any more filthy than any other smokeless.
 
I have data for std pressure 45 Colt with the following (each was with a CCI 300 primer):
250gr LRN with 13.0gr Blue Dot
285gr LRN with 12.5gr Blue Dot

I agree with the others that Blue Dot is not optimal in these low pressure cartridges. Strangely, I don't have any Blue Dot data for 454 Casull which would be the high pressure variant of 45 Colt.
 
I don't get this " bludot not optimal" stuff, it's burn rate is smack dab between the two powders that have most been used in the 45 colt, unique and 2400...
It works very well giving good velocity and accuracy, and does so staying in saami specs..
Give a try folks.
 
It works good, needs a mag primer and be up in the higher velocity range with a firm crimp.

It does do better in the higher pressure applications but still better that say imr 4227 for standard .45 Colt
 
i notice the data does not come with extreme spreads or standard deviations. Gun writers are such shameless shills and corporate suck ups and don't provide the information needed to really evaluate their loads. The lazy buggers post group sizes based on three round strings and don't publish es or sd's. I am of the opinion that blue dot is a piss poor powder for anything but magnum loads and jacketed bullets. I tested blue dot, admittedly only with 250 grain bullets, but the wide extreme spreads, very wide compared against unique, tell me this powder is not a good application for this cartridge at standard pressures.

Blue dot worked well in my 357 magnum with jacketed bullets. With magnum loads and lead bullets, i got leading, severe leading. I tried blue dot in 38 special, 45 acp, 9mm. The higher the pressure the better it worked. It was awful in these low pressure applications.

So we should take loading advice only from nameless, faceless people on internet forums, such as yourself, rather than those who make their living developing load data? I'll pass.

To answer the OP, I very much trust any data published in Rifle and Handloader magazines and the load you state should be fine.

I loaded Blue Dot in a recently acquired 5 1/2" Uberti Bisley in 45 Colt. I'd never used it before in that caliber, but upon reviewing load data found it seemed to strike a nice balance between Unique and 2400, two of my favorites. I tried one load and never had to look further. 13.0 grs. of Blue Dot, a Wolf LP primer and a 265 gr. SWC bullet cast from an RCBS 45-255 mould. Velocity averaged 986 fps. Extreme spread was.....what difference does it make? The load consistently grouped 4" - 6" @ 50 yds. when fired from a seated, back rested position. Being as this revolver was to be my primary deer hunting iron this season, I fired lots of this load, and was/am extremely confident in it. I would've used it for deer, but I was bound and determined to kill one with a cast HP. In fact the bullet I used was cast from a mould that duplicates the bullet in the OP. Worked like a charm!

Bullet%20from%20Spike_zps6m6ogv41.jpg

FWIW, when hunting, the first chamber to be indexed was the HP, the rest were the 265 gr. SWC's and the aforementioned load of Blue Dot. Again, that's how much confidence I had in the load. Never saw any of the filth others mentioned. My guess is those experiencing that problem as well as wide extreme spreads likely weren't crimping their bullets sufficiently and were getting incomplete and/or erratic powder ignition.

35W
 
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Blue Dot is a very good shotgun powder and does a great job with buckshot and heavy field loads. I don't use it in the 45 Colt. If you want a powder on the slow side for the 45 Colt give HS-6 a try. I did and I like the results a lot.
 
In reference to .45 Colt loads, I have read that a 270ish grain cast boolit on top of 12.5 grains of Blue Dot is considered a standard pressure load. One article in particular was written by Brian Pearce. Are there any factor information sources that support this data?

Alliant only shows this:

.45 Colt, 250 gr Speer LSWC, Brass-Winchester, OAL 1.6, Barrel 5.5", CCI 300, Blue Dot 12.9, 1,028 FPS

QUESTION: Does anyone dispute that this load is a standard pressure load for the .45 Colt (14,000 psi or less)?

Thank you
I doubt if anybody that has actually shot bludot in the 45 colt or similar cartridge would question if it's saami spec or not.
But here's where to go to get the straight skinny on it.Give them a call, good folks to visit with..
http://www.alliantpowder.com/questions/default.aspx
 
35Whelen,
My Mihec mold should be here shortly and I'll cast some of those HP's. I'll try the 13 gr of blue dot you mentioned. I stopped at 12.5 gr last time I tried it. didn't have any pressure signs, just ran out of BD before I could load any more. Now, about that mushroomed HP. How far away was the deer? Did it run off? Drop in place? Were you happy with the performance?
 
35Whelen,
My Mihec mold should be here shortly and I'll cast some of those HP's. I'll try the 13 gr of blue dot you mentioned. I stopped at 12.5 gr last time I tried it. didn't have any pressure signs, just ran out of BD before I could load any more. Now, about that mushroomed HP. How far away was the deer? Did it run off? Drop in place? Were you happy with the performance?
I came by the 13.0 gr. load because Handloader published 12.5 and a 285 gr. bullet as a 14,000 psi load. The HP I cast weighs 265 gr. so I figure pressures will be in line. But as always exercise caution.

35W
 
So we should take loading advice only from nameless, faceless people on internet forums, such as yourself, rather than those who make their living developing load data? I'll pass.

To answer the OP, I very much trust any data published in Rifle and Handloader magazines and the load you state should be fine.

You bring out a very interesting issue: Just how much trust should one have in profit maximizing corporations? Should they have our complete and utter trust?. Are they to be given 100 % trust, or should we have somewhat less faith and trust in the words of these entities. Gun Magazines are profit maximizing corporations. So, just how trustworthy are they? And do they provide full and complete product information?

Here is a recent example of a profit maximizing corporation not providing full and complete information on their product:


Volkswagen%20Clean%20Diesel%201_zpsjebkmwh4.jpg


Volkswagen Engineers are so virtuous that they sprout Angelic wings!

Volkswagen%20Engineer%20sprouting%20wings_zpsvm2ntwxq.jpg

I am of the opinion that Gun magazines are not independent or objective, rather, they are media for Corporate advertizing bureaus. A yearly subscription (six issues) of Rifle is $19.97. I rather doubt that subscriptions pay the full cost of the magazine, instead, the majority cost is covered by Corporate advertisers. When these guys pay the remainder of the cost of putting a magazine out, you can expect they make certain editorial demands on article content. I have zero faith that there are any barriers between the articles and Corporate marketing departments. If you the reader, have never figured out the product placements in the articles, then you must not aware of the media saturation that exists all around you. To the subscriber, Gun magazines provide enjoyable entertainment. As long are you understand that there is advertising masquerading as content then you understand their game.

As such, I have a certain level of skepticism when evaluating Gun Magazine recommendations. While the data may be “safe”, I don’t believe that their recommendations are optimal. Based on my data, I am convinced that Blue Dot is a poor choice for the 45 LC. I trust my data. I have put out in the public domain the average velocity, the extreme spreads, standard deviations, and the number of shots fired. I was satisfied with my data strings enough to provide what I consider to be, an informed opinion. I also am of the opinion, that given the number of posters who have less than stellar recommendations, that Blue Dot is not a good recommendation.


As for trusting Gunwriters on technical matters, which apparently you do, just what are the qualification of gunwriters? Is there an industry standard, such as certifying boards, educational requirements? I am not aware of any. Based on what I have read, no current Gunwriter has a technical degree. I have not read one claim that he/she has a degree in Math, Science, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering, etc. How many Professional Engineers are or were Gunwriters? The very best of the bunch have Literature or Journalism Degrees. None of the them actually work at a ammunition plant or manufacturing plant. A large majority of them seem to have their jobs because they enforced justice with a gun on their hip. Or they kill things in entertaining prose. Why should I consider them authorities on much of anything beyond killing creatures and men?


Is the reason you take their recommendations seriously because of their Celebrity status? It is amazing how people consider so highly the choices of Celebrities. These celebrities don’t even have to be alive. I recently saw a 007 movie and the brand of the watch James Bond was given was predominantly displayed. If you don't know, this is called product placement. It is an ad. A percentage of people will rush out to the store to buy that watch, because a fictional character wore that watch in a movie they saw. I recently saw a perfume ad. The post mortem career of Elizabeth Taylor is doing quite well. She is selling lots of perfume. Amazing how many people take seriously the recommendations of a dead woman. But she is a Celebrity. People join Scientology because Tom Cruise is a Scientologist. Within the shooting community, gunwriters have a high celebrity status. While I consider their technical background slight to non existent, because these guys are celebrities, their star crossed fans take these guys very seriously. But, how do you know that the Blue Dot recommendations in gun magazines are there because of the merit of the load, or are there because it is a product placement? Given the paucity of information gunwriters put out, averages and three shot groups, their data is not extensive enough to sort out good from bad recommendations. I think that is deliberate. And when I go out and test, in my guns, over my chronograph, what learn is that I would not recommend their loads to anyone who was looking for a good load, never mind “the best”.


I loaded Blue Dot in a recently acquired 5 1/2" Uberti Bisley in 45 Colt. I'd never used it before in that caliber, but upon reviewing load data found it seemed to strike a nice balance between Unique and 2400, two of my favorites. I tried one load and never had to look further. 13.0 grs. of Blue Dot, a Wolf LP primer and a 265 gr. SWC bullet cast from an RCBS 45-255 mould. Velocity averaged 986 fps. Extreme spread was.....what difference does it make? The load consistently grouped 4" - 6" @ 50 yds. when fired from a seated, back rested position. Being as this revolver was to be my primary deer hunting iron this season, I fired lots of this load, and was/am extremely confident in it. I would've used it for deer, but I was bound and determined to kill one with a cast HP. In fact the bullet I used was cast from a mould that duplicates the bullet in the OP. Worked like a charm!

Statements like the above just show the failure of the American public education system. Back in the day of Deming, Total Quality Management, I read Guide to Quality Control by Karoru Ishikawa. I did not read the original in Japanese, I am quite illiterate in Japanese, thankfully the text had been translated into English. But the original book was written for Japanese factory workers, guys who had the equivalent of high school educations. It was interesting to observe the statistics that Ishikawa put into his book. Terms like mean, median, mode, frequency, distribution, etc. There was one diagram that showed how data would form a normal distribution. Amazing that Japanese with only a primary school education could follow this, when it takes two years of College for an American to get to that level.

So, what do extreme spreads and standard deviations tell you that averages don’t: consistency. Averages do not provide any meaningful information about consistency. I suppose many remember Statistics class and the example of a person having one foot in an ice bucket and the other foot in a bucket of boiling water. The question to the class will be “is the average temperature in this situation meaningful?” It turns out, not really. Just how often does your bullet go 986 fps? I think that is a very meaningful question, and one that averages will not answer. Assuming that measured velocity follows a normal distribution, both the extreme spreads and standard deviations provide good measures of consistency and you can make predictions about just how often the bullet will actually go 986 fps.

Four to six inch groups are very good at 50 yards. How about shooting two inch groups at 50 yards, and do it offhand Bullseye style? The ten ring on the NRA Bullseye target is 2 inches in diameter at that distance. I have seen 97’s and 98’s shot by Master Class shooters, I am lucky to shoot in the 80’s slow fire. The top shooters have very consistent loads, they have to shoot tight groups at that distance. For them, consistency is important. I really like precision, predictability. Maybe it is obsessive compulsive behavior but I want accuracy, I want consistency, and I want the best choice, not just any choice.

And why should I take your nameless, faceless advice seriously? You proved that you could push a bullet out your barrel (something I don’t dispute) and you went out and killed something. If that is all you want, than you met your expectations. I want better. And should anyone trust me? Not a chance. What people should do is go out and test and then use their best judgment after evaluating their data. They should trust their test results over anyone’s authority. Gunwriters included.
 
Hercules gave data in their printed handouts as far back as the 1980's that show bludot data very similar to what Alliant shows today for it.
Burn rate between Unique and 2400, accuracy and velocity at saami spec pressures, what's not to like?
 
You bring out a very interesting issue: Just how much trust should one have in profit maximizing corporations? Should they have our complete and utter trust?. Are they to be given 100 % trust, or should we have somewhat less faith and trust in the words of these entities. Gun Magazines are profit maximizing corporations. So, just how trustworthy are they? And do they provide full and complete product information?

<snip>...too many irrelevant bunny trails.

You do realize that powder companies too are "profit maximizing corporations", don't you? That's right, they're in business to make money. The difference in them and a publication is one sells a specific product such as powders manufacturers do, (you know, powder...)and the other sells information; i.e., load data. They don't stand to profit more if they skew their data either.

If you prefer data developed by an engineer in a controlled environment using universal receivers and pressure barrels, I respect that and encourage you to continue utilizing those resources. I personally prefer data obtained by individuals using production firearms in "real" conditions. Over the last 30-odd years of handloading and chronographing, I've found my results more closely parallel data provided by individuals out shooting and chronographing "behind the barn", so to speak, rather than that developed in a lab. But I find it ironic that you criticize gunwriters and magazines data as somehow lacking in substance and credentials, yet you submit your own as somehow being "better" than theirs. In other words, we're to be skeptical of load data from Handloader, for instance, but take your data as gospel? What exactly are your qualifications? Owning a chronograph and a computer??

I understand your points regarding e.s.'s and s.d.'s but in my experience these figures only matter if a given load doesn't shoot well. Example:

Just this evening I loaded a never-tried-load of 2400 in one of my .44 Specials. As usual, I walk from the reloading room to the chronograph, fire 5 rounds and commit the velocity and e.s. to memory, to be recorded in my log book once the shooting is finished, then go on the bench with 10 additional rounds to test for accuracy. I was a little disappointed that the e.s. was 63 fps, but learned LONG ago that a large e.s. does not necessarily indicate a load won't be accurate. Sure enough, the rounds from the first cylinder full clustered into about 3" at 50 yds. The following 5 open the group up a little, but not enough to matter. Had I relied on the e.s. of 63 fps, I likely would've never made it to the bench. Likewise, I have fired handloads with e.s.'s in the teens that didn't group for squat.

I'm really glad you're an accomplished Bullseye competitor, I used to shoot High Power competition on our local reduced course. The Slow Fire 10-ring is 1.75", the X-ring. 3/4". I hold an Expert classification and my slow fire scores were normally in the mid to low '90's but I managed a few between 95 and 100. And I did all this firing cast bullets from an old Swiss K-31. I may have, but I don't recall recording e.s.'s or s.d.'s. In fact I rarely chronographed. If a load isn't accurate, what difference do the numbers make? If a load IS accurate, what difference do the numbers make?

I'll never forget reading what Jim Owen, a High Master shooter and trainer wrote in one of his publications (paraphrasing): If shooters would spend more time behind the trigger and less obsessing over the minutiae of their handloads, there'd be lots more champions in the world.

35W
 
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