Boberg XR9 (SHOT 2008)

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Don't get me wrong, I love the design and think people would buy it.
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Thanks - I love it too; but unfortunately, I have the only one - but I am working on resolving that...:)

...a strong market for this solution-in-search-of-a-problem gun.
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Funny, all the defense guns I own seem to fall in this category.:D

Seriously, though, if you were to consider the energy lost by the other guns, then you could easily find the problem. Check out this link:

http://www.bobergengineering.com/Energy Losses.htm

The point here is that the XR9 produces, on average, 60 more ft-lbs of energy than same-sized guns. 60 ft-lbs just happens to be the average difference between +P and standard ammo in 9mm.

If you could get +P performance out of standard ammo, why not? If you could get +P+ performance out of +P ammo, why not?

Gun-toting liberals will appreciate the fact that the Boberg XR9 is energy efficient, but I just hope they don't start nick-naming it the "green gun".:D
 
the locking mechanism does not look all that strong. It appears to rely on two minor lugs, and locks up an a rotating or slight camming principle.
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The two lugs are quite robust; however I don't have more that 4000 rounds on any pair of given lugs, so a torture test is coming up....
 
One thing that does give me pause...how do you clear jams? What happens if the round-puller-thingy grabs a round, pulls it halfway out of the mag, and loses its grip? What's the malfunction drill?
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Early in the development, shop made magazines put the cartridge a little too far forward, meaning the tongs would occasionally not grab a round. The remedy would be to retract the slide once to chamber a round. Magazines now allow .020" overtravel with the tongs. I haven't seen the tongs lose the grip half-way yet. The tongs are designed in such a way that the harder they pull, the harder they grip (self-energizing). It took a good part of a year to figure out the tongs.

If something obstructs the slide, and it only makes it part-way back, keep in mind that the cartridge is still in control of the tongs, so all you have to do is pull the slide the rest of the way back and let go to complete the feed cycle. At no point is the cartridge "floating in the air" like the old-style feeding.
 
I have no problem with rotary lockup, my concern is with tong reliability. I guess the tongs will be tortured when you torture the lugs. I hope they stand up. They are my only concern at this point.

Please torture your tongs with cartridges of varying overall length.
 
What does this gun do after the last round fired? It does not have a way of holding the bolt open so I would imagine that you stand a chance of pulling the trigger on an empty chamber as well as needing to charge the pistol for another magazine change, unless you do a mag drop with one in the chamber
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.

Finally! I am surprised this did not come up sooner. I am thinking of creating a poll for this one.

Here are two options for "last round fired" for this feeding cycle:

1. No slide stop - shoot the gun until the trigger goes "click" (as in the Rohrbaugh and others)

2. Add a slide stop lever and shoot the gun until the last round is pulled from the magazine. The slide will lock open with one round at the back, pointing at the barrel. A person then drops the empty mag, puts in full mag and either slingshots the slide or thumbs the slide stop lever. The only difference between this mode and traditional feeding is that you have one cartridge left, perched at the breech face with the slide locked open. One could say that you have a "one shot remaining indicator", where you could choose to drop the slide and fire the last shot in an emergency, or take your time and replace the magazine.
 
I have no problem with rotary lockup, my concern is with tong reliability. I guess the tongs will be tortured when you torture the lugs. I hope they stand up. They are my only concern at this point.

Please torture your tongs with cartridges of varying overall length.
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I have been pleasantly surprised at the performance of the tongs. I have had the same pair of tongs operating from the Gen I bench rig (3000 g's acceleration) to my current Gen III weapon (1800 g's acceleration). These tongs have over 4000 rounds on them with no signs of fatigue. True loading is about 50lb, but they are rated for 150 lb.

One note: an earlier pair of tongs had been used with a gas-delay slide (4200 g's of acceleration) and were made of annealed steel. They did bend after about 50 rounds. Once I bent them back and heat treated them, they went another 1000 rounds until I abandoned the gas-delay concept.
 
Regarding shooting the gun dry, I vote for the second option -- add a slide stop. Do not make the presence of the slide stop necessary for the operation of the gun. That way the user can remove the slide stop if he prefers the first option. Supply a pin without the slide stop lever so the user can fill the hole if he elects to remove the slide stop.

Note: There is a potential liability with the slide stop. Suppose the user shoots until the slide locks open and decides he is finished shooting. Further suppose that he forgets about the pending round and doesn't bother to visually check the ejection port. So he closes the slide and figures the gun is empty. Oops!

Idiots manage to get themselves into enough trouble with conventional pistols, the additional wrinkle of the pending round could mean trouble.

Maybe you should ignore my vote and let your attorneys decide.
 
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Looking at the design, it seems like it could be possible to make the gun with a fixed barrel. If that is the case, and the barrel doesn't need to cycle, then you could but the front sight post on the barrel and make it incredibly accurate.
Just a thought out loud.
The more I look at this, the more I dig it.
 
A quick glance tells me controllability may be an issue. It looks to me like the slide sits very high above the grip. Look how close the slide is to the grip on the 1911 and the M&P and that gives you an idea as to why they're easy to shoot.

With the slide that high off the grip it's going to make it that much harder to recover from recoil (anyone ever fire an UZI?)
 
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And not one of those volcanic (think Metal Injection Molded) rocks, either. Make mine good old granite.

Mike ;)
 
With the Rohrbaugh R9S being at $1199, and they appear to have a sustainable business, I am guessing the Boberg might be more unless a very clever way is found to keep the part cost down.
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No disrepect, but if it's going to retail at or above the Rohrbaugh price I would probably go for the smaller (in every dimension, I believe) R9. Concealability is more important to me than the bump in power.

If you could produce a compact version that could match or beat the R9 specs, that would be a different story.
 
Shorter overall length or a given barrel length (or, more barrel length in a given OAL), leading to higher muzzle velocities, which can be critical when you get into the short barrel lengths present in subcompact and pocket pistols

Elimination of several variables in the feeding cycle (along with the addition of several, so it remains to be seen if this is a net gain or loss for reliability- it has the potential to be either)

Mike
 
With the Rohrbaugh R9S being at $1199, and they appear to have a sustainable business, I am guessing the Boberg might be more unless a very clever way is found to keep the part cost down.
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No disrepect, but if it's going to retail at or above the Rohrbaugh price I would probably go for the smaller (in every dimension, I believe) R9. Concealability is more important to me than the bump in power.

If you could produce a compact version that could match or beat the R9 specs, that would be a different story.
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I would pay over $2,000 for a gun machined out of steel forgings and built with silicon springs.

In fact, I just did. My LRB M25 tanker rifle cost me $2719.85, without the optics. I would love to have a handgun built to the same quality standard. With its flimsy alloy frame, Rohrbaugh R9S doesn't cut it.
 
What advantage does this gun have over any other pistol?
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You get +P performance out of standard pressure ammo for one thing.

No one that I know of has taken a full-sized gun and shrunk it down 40% without losing any performance.
 
With its flimsy alloy frame, Rohrbaugh R9S doesn't cut it.
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In actuality, 7075-T6 aluminum at 70 kpsi tensile is stronger than many steels; where you can get into trouble is wear resistance. That is why you have to have very good plating penetration in aluminum or you will wear through it. Rohrbaugh uses an excellent plater do their work.

I am guessing that demand for a Boberg XR9 in stainless will be significant enough to have some made in that material. It will add about 4 ounces to the gun, but that is still 6 ounces lighter than guns of similar performance!
 
No, but their engine supplier makes guns..:rolleyes:

Aluminum frames, whether they are aircraft frames or gun frames are not designed to fail; I don't know of anyone that designs things to fail.

Beretta and Sig seem to hold up pretty well despite using aluminum in their frames.
 
ABBOBERG, remember this, and remember it well.

There are over 55,000 members on this board. Regarding any new design from any manufacturer, 95% will wonder what's so new or innovative about it, 75% will say it won't work, 50% say they would buy one and 15% actually do, 25% will say they absolutely suck (whether or not they actually know what the thread's about), and 10% will give the praise it truly deserves.

We've been ripping this one to shreds, questioning every little darned thing about it that's different, and it gets old.

It's a really innovative design, and there's no reason at all to question its reliability, when in fact there's nothing that's ever come close in operation.

Regarding materials strength, I think Zeleny's picking a fight with you. Whenever I've seen a firearm part fail, it was either a steel part, or a plastic component where a corner was cut for production costs. I agree with your sentiment regarding the use of aluminum, and also that of using stainless. Some like a CC pistol with a matte black finish, so maybe something along the lines of Sig's "black stainless" finish might be possible.

And as far as it being a "solution looking for a problem," remember that the same argument was used against the personal computer back in the 1970s. :neener:
 
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