Boberg XR9 (SHOT 2008)
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Billy Shears
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Great idea. I hope you can market it.
To Mr. Boberg: I was hoping to sign up for price information on your info request page. I've tried to leave this on your website, using the info submission form, but for the past couple of days, each time I've tried, I've been met with "Error 500 - Internal server error. An internal server error has occured! Please try again later."
Based on the size of your pistol, it looks like you may be competing most directly with Kahr, and your timing may be just right. Kahr seems to be ruining their reputation. I recently bought a TP40 because I wanted a flat, compact auto with a 4 inch barrel for off-duty carry (I'm a police detective), and that pistol seemed to fit the bill. Unfortunately, it turned out to be the single most unreliable pistol I have ever owned -- which is a shame, since I bought an MK40 seven years ago and carried as a back up in uniform, that has always been completely reliable. I realize all new autoloaders have a break in period, but when a gun can't fire more than two or three rounds at most without the slide failing to go into battery, that's just unacceptable. The seven round magazine (it also comes with a six rounder) was faulty, and once inserted, could not be removed without extreme force being applied to the magazine release button. I sent it back to the factory, and they serviced and returned it promptly, but unfortunately not throroughly. The failure of the slide to go into battery was still in evidence, only now instead of ever 2nd or 3rd round, it happened about a dozen times in a box of fifty rounds (FMJ rounds, BTW). Worse, however, was the about half a dozen times, the gun went "click" instead of "bang" when I pressed the trigger. The striker was not resetting every time. And this wasn't because I was failing to release the trigger; it happened a couple of times as I changed magazines and my finger was completely off the trigger.
I sent the gun back again, this time for a refund. I bought it for personal defense, and I won't ever carry I gun I can't trust. But I have been hearing a lot about Kahr's malfunctioning excessively lately, especially ones with the polymer frames. The staff at the gun shop where I bought the TP40 said just a week earlier they had to send back one they had sold to an NCIS agent, who was reporting the same sorts of malfunctions as mine. If they continue down this road, they will irretrievably damage their reputation with the gun buying public -- which may be good news for you if you arrive on the market with an alternative. Their misfortune may be your opportunity.
A word of caution, however. I have followed the thread about which one to offer first, the XR9, or the XR9 shorty. I understand you had to get a little innovative in fitting in a recoil spring on the shorty. If there is the slightest unreliability with whatever set up you adopted, I would say market the standard XR9 first, and sort the shorty out later. If you hit the market with a less than perfectly reliable weapon, you may never recover from the bad first impression it will make on buyers. Personally, I'd rather have the standard version anyway.
And if you don't mind a suggestion, may I humbly suggest you take a look at the old Remington Model 51, and try to contour the grip and slide as much like that as possible? Especially the grip, which I think is the most ergonomically perfect grip ever put on a compact pistol. Most guns these days, including the compact ones meant for concealed carry, have slides with a blocky, flat-topped cross section that makes both the gun and the holster work against comfort and concealability. Yes, I realize these guns often are still concealable, but they would be more so, and more comfortable to wear all day if the top of the slide had a rounded off contour like most autos of pre-WWII vintage did.
Anway, that's my 2 cents. Sorry for the length, and I sincerely hope you can make a successful go of this commercially. The majority of autos out there today are just more iterations of Browning's tilting barrel. It's nice to see someone innovating for a change instead of just imitating.
To Mr. Boberg: I was hoping to sign up for price information on your info request page. I've tried to leave this on your website, using the info submission form, but for the past couple of days, each time I've tried, I've been met with "Error 500 - Internal server error. An internal server error has occured! Please try again later."
Based on the size of your pistol, it looks like you may be competing most directly with Kahr, and your timing may be just right. Kahr seems to be ruining their reputation. I recently bought a TP40 because I wanted a flat, compact auto with a 4 inch barrel for off-duty carry (I'm a police detective), and that pistol seemed to fit the bill. Unfortunately, it turned out to be the single most unreliable pistol I have ever owned -- which is a shame, since I bought an MK40 seven years ago and carried as a back up in uniform, that has always been completely reliable. I realize all new autoloaders have a break in period, but when a gun can't fire more than two or three rounds at most without the slide failing to go into battery, that's just unacceptable. The seven round magazine (it also comes with a six rounder) was faulty, and once inserted, could not be removed without extreme force being applied to the magazine release button. I sent it back to the factory, and they serviced and returned it promptly, but unfortunately not throroughly. The failure of the slide to go into battery was still in evidence, only now instead of ever 2nd or 3rd round, it happened about a dozen times in a box of fifty rounds (FMJ rounds, BTW). Worse, however, was the about half a dozen times, the gun went "click" instead of "bang" when I pressed the trigger. The striker was not resetting every time. And this wasn't because I was failing to release the trigger; it happened a couple of times as I changed magazines and my finger was completely off the trigger.
I sent the gun back again, this time for a refund. I bought it for personal defense, and I won't ever carry I gun I can't trust. But I have been hearing a lot about Kahr's malfunctioning excessively lately, especially ones with the polymer frames. The staff at the gun shop where I bought the TP40 said just a week earlier they had to send back one they had sold to an NCIS agent, who was reporting the same sorts of malfunctions as mine. If they continue down this road, they will irretrievably damage their reputation with the gun buying public -- which may be good news for you if you arrive on the market with an alternative. Their misfortune may be your opportunity.
A word of caution, however. I have followed the thread about which one to offer first, the XR9, or the XR9 shorty. I understand you had to get a little innovative in fitting in a recoil spring on the shorty. If there is the slightest unreliability with whatever set up you adopted, I would say market the standard XR9 first, and sort the shorty out later. If you hit the market with a less than perfectly reliable weapon, you may never recover from the bad first impression it will make on buyers. Personally, I'd rather have the standard version anyway.
And if you don't mind a suggestion, may I humbly suggest you take a look at the old Remington Model 51, and try to contour the grip and slide as much like that as possible? Especially the grip, which I think is the most ergonomically perfect grip ever put on a compact pistol. Most guns these days, including the compact ones meant for concealed carry, have slides with a blocky, flat-topped cross section that makes both the gun and the holster work against comfort and concealability. Yes, I realize these guns often are still concealable, but they would be more so, and more comfortable to wear all day if the top of the slide had a rounded off contour like most autos of pre-WWII vintage did.
Anway, that's my 2 cents. Sorry for the length, and I sincerely hope you can make a successful go of this commercially. The majority of autos out there today are just more iterations of Browning's tilting barrel. It's nice to see someone innovating for a change instead of just imitating.
ABBOBERG
Member
Billy,
Thanks for the heads up on my website. I have been having problems with my ISP that I hope to address tomorrow.
Sorry to hear about your Kahr. I originally began this venture with the intent to offer an improvement over what is currently out there. Reliability comes with working the bugs out of the original design, then maintaining tight quality control to retain the elements that afford reliability. Some manufacturers are better at this than others.
You guessed right on the Shorty. It will require an entirely different recoil spring arrangement. I am hoping that the design I am proposing to build will be as reliable as the full-size design.
The grip design on the prototype XR9 has not been finalized yet, so I will look into what can be learned off the Remington Model 51. However, everyone who has held, dry-fired, or fired the XR9 has found the grip to be very comfortable, and significantly more comfortable than other same-size guns. There is a lot more to hang on to which can be seen on the "Overlay" page on my website.
As far as rounding the slide - this is very difficult to do without form tools, so I used flat faces that could be easily sanded to achieve surface finish on the prototype. The goal for production is to round the slide more and use more of a matte finish.
I appreciate all the comments on the Bolt Hold-open Feature (BHO). I am no longer going to lose sleep over it.
Thanks for the heads up on my website. I have been having problems with my ISP that I hope to address tomorrow.
Sorry to hear about your Kahr. I originally began this venture with the intent to offer an improvement over what is currently out there. Reliability comes with working the bugs out of the original design, then maintaining tight quality control to retain the elements that afford reliability. Some manufacturers are better at this than others.
You guessed right on the Shorty. It will require an entirely different recoil spring arrangement. I am hoping that the design I am proposing to build will be as reliable as the full-size design.
The grip design on the prototype XR9 has not been finalized yet, so I will look into what can be learned off the Remington Model 51. However, everyone who has held, dry-fired, or fired the XR9 has found the grip to be very comfortable, and significantly more comfortable than other same-size guns. There is a lot more to hang on to which can be seen on the "Overlay" page on my website.
As far as rounding the slide - this is very difficult to do without form tools, so I used flat faces that could be easily sanded to achieve surface finish on the prototype. The goal for production is to round the slide more and use more of a matte finish.
I appreciate all the comments on the Bolt Hold-open Feature (BHO). I am no longer going to lose sleep over it.
Billy Shears
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About the bolt hold open
ABBOBERG: if I understand you correctly, you are not going to engineer a bolt hold open feature (which would only work with a round in the extractor tongs, meaning there was still a around ready to be chambered and fired), but just allow the slide to close on an empty chamber.
This isn't really a problem for speed reloads. The most current training out there emphasizes use of gross motor skills over fine ones, since fine motor skills tend to disappear under stress. As a result, we in my department, and many who are getting the latest training, are being taught to effect a speed reload by inserting the new magazine, and then instead of trying to thumb the slide release lever (a fine motor skill), rotating the support hand up to grasp the slide, and simultaneously tug the support hand back toward the body and thrust the firing hand and pistol forward, back to the firing position (a gross motor skill). This maneuver would be just as quick to accomplish with the slide forward as with it held to the rear.
Perhaps you could engineer a highly visible loaded chamber indicator on the rear of the slide, so that when the slide does close on the empty chamber, it can easily be seen to alert the firer that he now holds an empty firearm, and needs to reload, rather than have him standing there pulling the trigger a couple of times uselessly before he realizes he needs to reload.
ABBOBERG: if I understand you correctly, you are not going to engineer a bolt hold open feature (which would only work with a round in the extractor tongs, meaning there was still a around ready to be chambered and fired), but just allow the slide to close on an empty chamber.
This isn't really a problem for speed reloads. The most current training out there emphasizes use of gross motor skills over fine ones, since fine motor skills tend to disappear under stress. As a result, we in my department, and many who are getting the latest training, are being taught to effect a speed reload by inserting the new magazine, and then instead of trying to thumb the slide release lever (a fine motor skill), rotating the support hand up to grasp the slide, and simultaneously tug the support hand back toward the body and thrust the firing hand and pistol forward, back to the firing position (a gross motor skill). This maneuver would be just as quick to accomplish with the slide forward as with it held to the rear.
Perhaps you could engineer a highly visible loaded chamber indicator on the rear of the slide, so that when the slide does close on the empty chamber, it can easily be seen to alert the firer that he now holds an empty firearm, and needs to reload, rather than have him standing there pulling the trigger a couple of times uselessly before he realizes he needs to reload.
StrikeFire83
Member
I never really understood this mode of thinking, honestly. It seems that if you're right handed, reaching your thumb over and manipulating the slide release, is a much less advanced motor skill then aiming a weapon at a moving target, lining up the sights, and exercising precise trigger control.
I train with the slide release because it is a feature that all my semis have in common.
Billy Shears
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That's partially true. And my department only started training that way when we transitioned from the S&W 5946 (which I hated), to the Glock 17. The Glock, you may note, does have a very small slide release lever, which lies very flat against the frame, and which would be easy to miss in a stressful encounter. The larger, but still not overlarge, slide release lever on the Glock 34 and 35 would be better in this regard.
And certainly, pressing a slide release can be accomplished under stress; there are enough historical of it being done to put the matter beyond doubt. I think modern training doesn't stress it, however, because it has occasionally been fumbled too, and it's easier to train to use a gross motor skill than a fine one.
ABOBBERG
I think this design is very interesting. I would buy one as soon as it came out if I could afford it. Of course reliability is an issue, no one wants an unreliable gun (save chauchat collectors). To me price is certainly the biggest hurdle, but if you can make your business work on a higher price, well a business is not a charity, it needs to make money! I think the high price is the first step and that they will come down after that. I recall that my family once had a $3,000 computer with an astonishingly huge 4gb harddrive!
And as far as performance gains, I recall hearing that .45acp looses a lot of potency in a 3" barrel. Well a compact pistol that shoots .45acp without loosing potency, that is a good idea.
Lastly, I now wish I was in engineering, I sure would go up to minnesota for an internship! Let me know when you have a corporate flight department!
I think this design is very interesting. I would buy one as soon as it came out if I could afford it. Of course reliability is an issue, no one wants an unreliable gun (save chauchat collectors). To me price is certainly the biggest hurdle, but if you can make your business work on a higher price, well a business is not a charity, it needs to make money! I think the high price is the first step and that they will come down after that. I recall that my family once had a $3,000 computer with an astonishingly huge 4gb harddrive!
And as far as performance gains, I recall hearing that .45acp looses a lot of potency in a 3" barrel. Well a compact pistol that shoots .45acp without loosing potency, that is a good idea.
Lastly, I now wish I was in engineering, I sure would go up to minnesota for an internship! Let me know when you have a corporate flight department!
I need to start saving.
I'll take a compact when you get around to making one, and somthing with a 6" barrel. Finally I'll be able to drop steel without doubletapping them or shooting right at the tippy top of them. Yay!
I have a million questions about the tongs. I just don't understand looking at the cutaway how they work.
What controls when the claws engage and disengage?
How do they engage and disengage (2000 G is A LOT), and how is tension with the case maintained? I assume that because tension IS constantly maintained, that the tension isn't applied by the recoil energy. Or is it?
The design looks brilliant. The engineer inside me is dying to understand the heart of this system.
I'll take a compact when you get around to making one, and somthing with a 6" barrel. Finally I'll be able to drop steel without doubletapping them or shooting right at the tippy top of them. Yay!
I have a million questions about the tongs. I just don't understand looking at the cutaway how they work.
What controls when the claws engage and disengage?
How do they engage and disengage (2000 G is A LOT), and how is tension with the case maintained? I assume that because tension IS constantly maintained, that the tension isn't applied by the recoil energy. Or is it?
The design looks brilliant. The engineer inside me is dying to understand the heart of this system.
ABBOBERG
Member
The tongs engage two ways: one, by inserting the magazine, the top cartridge case flange slides into the gripping grooves of the tongs; two, on the return stroke of the slide, the tongs "snap over" the cartridge case flange.
The tongs are spring loaded toward each other and grip the case with about 3 lbs of force. With the rearward acceleration of the slide, this gripping force increases greatly because the tongs are self-energizing due to the location of the pivot. So recoil energy does contribute to the gripping force, or tension, as you call it.
The tongs are truly the heart of this system. In the initial stages of design, I was very concerned about the strength of the tongs, but after having a pair of annealed tongs bend after about 50 rounds, I was able to fairly accurately determine how much force was being applied to them during rearward acceleration of the slide. By heat treating the tongs, the strength was increased four fold. I haven't bent a tong since; nor have I broken a tong.
Billy Shears
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Mr. Boberg, have you any idea yet how close you are to a production date?
hankdatank1362
Member
Like we were all taught not to let the slide slam into battery with one in the pipe because the extractor claw would have to "snap" over the cartridge rim, possibly damaging the extractor?
How about the leaf spring that positions the cartridge towards the chamber? That and the tongs seem like the two biggest possible points of failure.
Aside from anything else, congratulations.
You may very well have doenwhat no one else has done in over 100 years. Designed an entirely new method of constructing a locked-breech autopistol. If this works, your name might go on to hold such glory as his majesty, John Moses.
Billy Shears
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Actually, it's not new. Over 100 years ago, the Mars pistol, designed by Hugh Gabbet-Fairfax used pretty much the same method of operation.
ABBOBERG
Member
Actually, in the XR9, the tongs snap over the top cartridge in the magazine.
The chamber extractor is locked when the barrel and slide is in the battery position, so there is no "snap over" when the cartridge is in the chamber.
My current leaf spring has about 2000 rounds through it with no sign of tiring - yet. It is made of 302 SS with the grain going in the long direction. The stress in this part, accoring to Finite Element analysis is about one-fourth of the strength of the metal.
I was disappointed to find the Mars patent about 1 year after I came up with my design. It did force me to narrow my patent claims. And, for the record, the only real similarites are the concept of rear extraction from the magazine (my magazine design is totally different) and the fact that tongs are used. Everything else is totally different. In my opinion, the three major design flaws of the Mars were the lack of a top stop for the cartridge being lifted (it could fly out the top), the cartridge was tipped back at an angle (giving the cartridge "spin"), and the fact that the cartridge was still way below the barrel axis, requiring the tongs to cooperate and align with the feed ramp to get the cartridge into the chamber. Even if the cartridge would pass through one design flaw it would encounter the next, etc. Please note that the Boberg XR9 has a top stop, uses parallel lift (not at an angle) and has no feed ramp (and does not need it).
Nolo
Member
You pistol has certainly caught my eye.
I'm intrigued by what one could do with an extra 40 or so millimeters of barrel length.
I definitely think the best large cartridge for this weapon (at least for a bigger version) would be 10mm Auto.
There are many places that this design could fit into. If you made your pistol full-size with a long barrel, you could get the 10mm Auto cartridge to do some impressive things, even potentially rivaling the lower-level .44 Magnum loads.
Out of an automatic, double-stack pistol, that would be quite something. The longer barrel would also help tame recoil, which is important with that particular cartridge. In addition, one could garner even more performance by using polygonal rifling, which could make a real name for this design.
The pocket pistol is just the beginning for this design, I think.
Imagine a 14-round, 10mm Auto Boberg with a 6.5-inch barrel that is the exact same size as an M1911, using polygonal rifling to potentially push a 200-grain bullet to 1400 f/s or more. Now, that's a fighting handgun.
In addition, the extra barrel length could be an extremely useful feature in PDWs, allowing cartridges of small dimensions to equal larger ones or for larger cartridges to retain much more of their velocity.
Assuming the mechanics work out, and if I understand them right, they probably will, then Mr. Boberg has basically garnered an extra inch and a half of barrel length, free of charge. There's a lot you can do with that.
I'm intrigued by what one could do with an extra 40 or so millimeters of barrel length.
I definitely think the best large cartridge for this weapon (at least for a bigger version) would be 10mm Auto.
There are many places that this design could fit into. If you made your pistol full-size with a long barrel, you could get the 10mm Auto cartridge to do some impressive things, even potentially rivaling the lower-level .44 Magnum loads.
Out of an automatic, double-stack pistol, that would be quite something. The longer barrel would also help tame recoil, which is important with that particular cartridge. In addition, one could garner even more performance by using polygonal rifling, which could make a real name for this design.
The pocket pistol is just the beginning for this design, I think.
Imagine a 14-round, 10mm Auto Boberg with a 6.5-inch barrel that is the exact same size as an M1911, using polygonal rifling to potentially push a 200-grain bullet to 1400 f/s or more. Now, that's a fighting handgun.
In addition, the extra barrel length could be an extremely useful feature in PDWs, allowing cartridges of small dimensions to equal larger ones or for larger cartridges to retain much more of their velocity.
Assuming the mechanics work out, and if I understand them right, they probably will, then Mr. Boberg has basically garnered an extra inch and a half of barrel length, free of charge. There's a lot you can do with that.
gvnwst
Member
For around the place I live, were the trees limit range to about 15yd, that would make a awesome hunting gun.
Plus, if its reliable, it would be great for home defense.
ABBOBERG
Member
Actually, an XR9 with a 1911-sized frame would have a 6.7" barrel chambered in 10mm (and likely would be dubbed the "XR10").
The general rule for the barrel length on the XR9 is take the barrel length and add 1.7" (for 9mm only). Since I have not designed the XR10 yet, I am assuming that the non-barrel length of the gun is going to be about 1.8".
ABBOBERG
Member
Getting shelf space is difficult since it is limited and often goes to the high-volume guys like Glock and S&W. Direct sales will probably be the first sales channel.
As far as timing - despite some advice I had been given, I just finished building, and am in the process of de-bugging, the Shorty, and have found what others had already speculated to be a challenge, and that is the recoil spring mechanism. I am just not getting enough force with the skinny spring I have selected, with little room to significantly increase the size of the spring. And I refuse to use rubber bands. I will keep everyone posted on progress...
I for one would love to see the full-size!! Like previously stated by other members the gun community can be unforgiving and must have near 100% reliability to be popular so why not release the Full size reliable version first? Then you can work out the kinks on the subcompact. The interest in both versions seems to be smilar almost 50/50 in the polls on this site.
NelsErik
Member
What ever happened with this gun?
ABBOBERG
Member
It got to the prototype phase then the inventor thought this was too much fun so he decided to go for it. Thousands of parts are already in inventory. Tooling is being designed and built for the frame and slide.
ccoorreeyy
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Arne, I love your post above! You got me laughing. When can we buy one?
I've got a XR9 front pocket holster (thanks www.mecopocketholsters.com! ) now all I need is a XR9!!!!!! Man I want one (or more) of these.
I've got a XR9 front pocket holster (thanks www.mecopocketholsters.com! ) now all I need is a XR9!!!!!! Man I want one (or more) of these.
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