Body Armor: ridiculous or prudent?

[P5 Guy]

Ragnar, Sam, I'm not hijacking the topic. I have a serious question. It is tied in with other intense discussions concerning civil suits.
Would using a "bullet proof vest" be seen as an issue like handloads or modifications that enhance the performance of the firearm used in a SD/HD situation?
Thanks P5

 

[stumpers]

I still have my Eagle Industries MAR-CIRAS with IIIA and ESAPI plates that I've had since the Army a few years ago. I only own one gun, a G19, so I got rid of all the sweet pouches (rife, frag, smoke, etc) I used to have on it for deployment and have it slicked down to holster, pistol mags, flashlight and one-handed tourniquet.

I live in a large apartment building which is fairly secure and monitored, so the only reason I would put on my kit is if I heard gunfire - at which point I would put it on, call the police and sit against the innermost wall with a clear view of the door. I hope I'm never again wearing that vest, seeking cover from rifle fire ...

Ridiculous or prudent? Depends. Some places in Afghanistan wearing a vest and helmet was ridiculously unnecessary back in 2004/2005, but in Iraq a few months later it was completely prudent and necessary. I like to have it just for kicks now, fun to wear while I shoot at the range because I'm so used to chest mounted equipment. I would never want to leave my apartment to investigate anything dangerous, but if I had to leave my apartment for some reason while it was dangerous outside, I wouldn't hesitate to wear the vest.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Whey not the ceramic plate armor? Home invaders may be carrying rifles.

Statistics don't seem to support that as a probability, but if you can work it in your plan efficiently, why not? I use a plate carrier myself. I use it because it's quick, light, easy to put on, and can hold reloads, a light, and a cell phone. The fact plates can stop rifle rounds is a bonus.

People do get shot in break-ins. Armor can help save you. People rarely get shot with rifles during break-ins.

 

[JustinJ]

Quote:
Whey not the ceramic plate armor? Home invaders may be carrying rifles.

Statistics don't seem to support that as a probability, but if you can work it in your plan efficiently, why not? I use a plate carrier myself. I use it because it's quick, light, easy to put on, and can hold reloads, a light, and a cell phone. The fact plates can stop rifle rounds is a bonus.

Which statistics are being used to support use of any body armor? I don't recall reading many incidents of armed home owners getting shot by invaders. I was just trying to point out that there is always another layer of defense one can add for unlikely events.

Search the armed citizen archives of the NRA by states for an idea of how invasion attempts actually happen. Such stories will also make you laugh when you hear about people claim that criminal proficiency with firearms is the norm.

http://www.nraila.org/armedcitizen/

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Which statistics are being used to support use of any body armor?

If you don't think there's a risk of you getting shot in a home invasion, I trust you don't keep a firearm at the ready?

JustinJ, why is the use of an offensive tool in a home invasion acceptable and wise, and the use of a defensive tool is ridiculous?

 

[12gaugeTim]

When I get really, really into something, I find myself forgoing blinking because I don't want to miss the fraction of the second it would take to do so. How much of your neck are you willing to stick out when the moment you reach for a vest could be the same moment he comes busting in and attacks you? I imagine myself bunkering up, gun aimed at door, asap. Would you use it if you owned one? Food for thought..

 

[JustinJ]

If you don't think there's a risk of you getting shot in a home invasion, I trust you don't keep a firearm at the ready?

People get shot outside of their homes too. So then do you wear one every where you go? If you don't wear a vest outside your home at all times then i trust you don't carry a gun either? That game goes both ways.

The point is that the risk of being shot in one's home is too remote to justify buying one just to try and fumble it on in the middle of the night. If said invader gets by my dogs and then gets the drop on me in my own home that he's not familiar with then he's probably skilled enough to be armed with a rifle to begin with.

 

[Jeff White]

I have a lot of body armor here in the house. 36 years of combined military/LE service has left me with a lot of the stuff.

The way I see it everyone of us has a budget. I wouldn't skimp on other more sure passive security measures like good deadbolt locks, steel clad doors in good frames, alarm systems etc so I could buy body armor.

I know those things aren't as high speed as knowing you have have kevlar at the end of the bed ready to don before the gunfight.....but maybe spending the money you would spend on body armor on some of those low speed/high drag things can help you avoid the gunfight all together.

I would only add it to my equipment after the outer layers of security were in place.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

JustinJ,
You're still attempting to equate a situation where something may happen to a situation where something is happening.

When you go outside for day to day busniess, you may be in a situation where your life might be in danger. When you are responding to noise at night, you are in a situation where your life might be in danger. There is also a scale of how much of a hassle it is. When you go about your day to day business, you might have body armor on all day. When you respond to a noise at night, you may have it on for ten minutes. What seems like a reasonable precaution in one scenario might not in another.

When you go in your backyard to light off fireworks or have a campfire, do you bring water or a fire extinguisher? Do you bring one any time you go outside for any amount of time?

The two questions are obviously not the same. In one, you are bringing a fire extinguisher along for a limited amount of time because you are in a situation where the risk of needing it to put out a fire is heightened, so even though bringing the fire extinguisher is extra work, you deem it worth the effort in this one instance. You don't bring the fire extinguisher along every day you go outside because you don't want to carry it all the time when, even though there is still a possibility of encountering fire, the need is lessened.

When you are responding to a noise at night, you are in a situation where it's need is heightened as opposed to your normal day. You also do not have to have it on for nearly as long. This is a rather obvious difference between the two situations, and attempting to draw a comparison is a rather poor strawman argument.

 

[Chindo18Z]

JustinJ: The point is that the risk of being shot in one's home is too remote to justify buying one just to try and fumble it on in the middle of the night.

Let's try that another way (and mathematically at about the same level of probability):

"The point is that the risk of being shot in one's home is too remote to justify buying a gun just to try and fumble it to hand in the middle of the night."

Why would you fumble anyway? Quickly donning a vest is easier than pulling up your pants. Or throwing on a pullover shirt.

Another poster indicated that he felt 4 seconds was about the time required to don his vest. I would concur. Under frequent rocket and mortar attacks in Iraq & Afghanistan, I found that I could routinely roll out of the rack from a deep sleep, hit the floor prone, and don my fastened ACH helmet and clear ballistic eye wear in about that time frame. An additional four seconds to throw on 40 lbs of complete plate armor battle rig (Eagle Maritime CIRAS with full combat load)...

At home, I can slip on a soft vest in less time than it takes to type this. I have that time at my place due to other layers of defense and the spatial layout of my home. I also have time to put a long gun to hand.

You obviously feel that armor is too much. Having seen my share of people killed violently, I can assure you that when the time comes, too much ain't enough.

A $150-$300 used soft vest is a wise and inexpensive investment...and so easy to don, that it's preposterous to argue that it's impractical. It might offend your sense of Fashion-Fu, but that's simply a personal preference not necessarily founded in logic.

Although I take comfort in my ability to handle a firearm...I also viscerally understand that I am not bulletproof. I appreciate the defensive edge that armor offers because I've seen it work. The worst day of your life will not play out anywhere near the way you imagine.

I'm not bustin' your chops to be antagonistic...just disagreeing with your premise for making a choice.

What if...What if...What if? We all make choices.

 

[Derry 1946]

Given finite resources, one question is whether to spend first on body armor or on a tougher door to the safe room/rally point (master bedroom or whatever). If the infrastructure permits, a hardened room might be the worthwhile investment (for a whole family to hunker down in). Apartment dwellers and people with no kids may find body armor suits them better (no pun intended). My firearms instructed recommended a steel door and frame -- basically an exterior grade or even commercial exterior grade door, for the bedroom. At least solid wood -- hollow core doors are easily penetrated with bullet or foot.

 

[fallout mike]

Chindo, your argument doesn't apply to the average joe. Your military training, service, and experience a are not had by myself and many many others. When a noise wakes me up at night I'm wondering whether I really heard anything or not & if so maybe its one of the kids. I would agree its good to have but not for the average person when something goes bump in the night. Also, thanks for your service.

 

[12gaugeTim]

Why would you fumble anyway?

Sorry we can't all be Mr. Cool, but if I get woken up in the middle of the night by someone who has seen my car, knows I am probably inside, yet still is breaking into my home, likely with the intention of harming me if I pose a threat to him or even get in his way, I, admittedly, might be a little bit (but more likely very) nervous and scared.
Count in your head or use a timer: 4 seconds. It's a long time. It's about the amount of time it takes for someone with a fast pace to get from the back door to the bedroom. But do you even have your gun yet?
Another thing to consider is that 4 seconds doesn't start when you wake up. I wake up in the middle of the night on occasion and the first thing I think is typically not, "yep, better grab the gun."

 

[fallout mike]

Tim thinks the same as me. I was beginning to think I wasn't the only one that reacts to getting woken up from a deep sleep from some unknown reason by putting on body armor and grabbing a gun. Thanks man.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Well...Some of you need to quit imagining defeat and simply harden up and decide to win.

If you are too slow to come to alert, you'd better improve your locks and doors. How do you expect to even meet a threat with your gun if the boogerman can be in your bedroom in 4 seconds? Figure out a way to give yourself those seconds.

When a noise wakes me up at night I'm wondering whether I really heard anything or not & if so maybe its one of the kids.

Me too. Military training has nothing to do with it. There is nothing "cool" about waking up to danger and damn near dropping a load in your pants (which I've done).

If you have the armor...and you have the time...put it on. Otherwise, in the words of my old Drill Sergeant: "Do The Best You Can." You can "What If?" yourself to death. It's just a piece of equipment. If you have it...you can use it. If you don't...you can't. Pretty simple.

The OP asked if body armor was prudent or ridiculous. It's cheap, available, easy to use, and it works. I say prudent.

But I wouldn't waste my money on armor (or a gun) if my home defenses were so weak that someone could breach my house and be standing over my bed before I could even roll out of it.

 

[armoredman]

Alarms. Dogs. Hardened doors/windows. Steel security screens. Remote lighting. Cell phones.
Check.
Time to add the armor layer. Whoops, already did - even my 11 year old son has a vest, and trains to throw it on and roll under the bed for cover. It's another expired PD vest for what must have been a VERY small officer, but fits him, and is better than nothing. If I can get one of the US Palm versions for me, and it works for me, then I may just break down and get two more, one for the wife and one for the son, the MOLLE one so we can attach pouches with flashlights on both of them, plus cell phone pouches for me/wife.
We'll see. My vest is old, but it's what I have - BTW, the only time I wore it outside the house was for Dept range - some of these new kids just can't shoot!

 

[george29]

For HD it is a great idea if you attach all the doodads to it (holster, pouches for lights, keys, ammo, cell phone). In 10 years as a cop I wore a vest maybe 20 times and maybe I am luckly to still be here. Vests are good.

 

[BikerRN]

For me the bullet resistant vest is part of the entire home defense security system.

No one part can do it all but as a whole, the entire system, works pretty good. Yes, I have one and it affords me some protection, means to carry spare ammo, way to keep a communication device on me in a fast moving and dangerous situation, and with a lanyard somewhere to attach my illumination device when I'm in my birthday suit.

Biker

 

[fallout mike]

George how did you ever make it to this point?

 

[Sgt_R]

I see nothing wrong with keeping a vest next to your rifle. If you have time to grab the rifle, you have time to don the vest, no?

Whey not the ceramic plate armor? Home invaders may be carrying rifles.

I agree, why not?

Chindo, your argument doesn't apply to the average joe. Your military training, service, and experience a are not had by myself and many many others.

His argument may not apply to you, but our nation has been at war for 10+ years now. The percentage of the US civilian population with similar experience is non-trivial.

R

 

[fallout mike]

Sgt r, he said he could don his quickly even while taking mortar fire. So in your opinion I'm the only person that hasn't experienced this? Once again, most people have not

 

[Sgt_R]

So in your opinion I'm the only person that hasn't experienced this?

No, of course not. In the strictest sense, your statement that his argument "doesn't apply to the average joe" is entirely correct; the average person doesn't have that experience to draw from.

I was only pointing out that a significant minority of people do have similar experience to draw from. For instance, I know for a fact that I can go from a dead sleep to fully armed, armored, and proned out on the floor in under 10 seconds. Adrenaline does funny things when you hear that "incoming" alarm at 0200.

I would be willing to bet, given the number of current and former LE and military personnel we have on this forum, that plenty of other folks in this thread have worn body armor in a professional capacity. For those people who have that experience, or for anyone else willing to learn (all it takes is practice - you don't actually need anyone shooting mortars at you, though I suppose it helps), then it seems that body armor would be another useful tool in the toolbox.

R

 

[fallout mike]

I agree with you in general just not so much the scenario in the op. At what point do you make the decision to put it on.

 

[baylorattorney]

Body armor gives confidence to its wearer and that can be an important factor when investigating bumps in the night. I say wear it. Also, if you fall asleep in it and have a bad back, it's therapeutic too.


Mark, esquire

 

[Sgt_R]

At what point do you make the decision to put it on.

Ok, here's how my line of thinking goes...

In any potentially violent encounter (at home or otherwise), I am most likely to be armed with a pistol because that's the weapon that I carry, keep on my nightstand, etc. If I can solve the problem with a pistol through use of force, successful E&E, or whatever, then good. End of discussion.

If I can't solve the problem with a pistol, then hopefully (if I have the time, ability, and luck) I can use my pistol to get to my rifle. Maybe the rifle is in my closet or under my bed, or maybe it's behind the seat of my truck or in the trunk of my car. Whatever.

Point being, in any situation where I have the time and need to go for my rifle, then I (probably) also have the time (and need!) to throw on a plate carrier. It only takes a few extra seconds, and it might save my life. This is why I suggested storing a plate carrier next to your HD rifle in post #70.

R