Body Armor: ridiculous or prudent?

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If I hear a bump in the night i go check it out with nothing but a pair of boxers or pj pants and a flashlight.
I live in a town where the last murder was a couple of years ago and was the first one for almost a decade as far as i have heard.
When I lived in Racine I lived in the bad area and the most i typically had was a small crkt folding knife and at most a kabar.
If you live in a dangerous area where home invasions are more likely I see nothing wrong with taking some steps to better prepare. Perhaps from a legal perspective having a tac vest and a couple of guns would be seen as overkill by a judge. I would say if you are certain that something is up in your house you need to call 911. After that id say your ass is covered.
With cell phones being so common i cant see home invasions being too common in built up areas with easy cell coverage, in the past cutting the phone line would be enough to cut off all external communication, now it would be too easy for the call to go out before the home can be completely searched by the bad guy.
When i lived out in the country I was more concerned with such things due to the isolation.
 
They give reporters in war zones body armor. They don't give them guns. Some meter maids wear body armor but don't carry. Judges have been given body armor during certain cases. Even criminals can wear armor during transport if there is a risk they might be harmed while in custody.

Body armor is passive. It is not threatening. It cannot hurt anyone. It can only save lives, not take them. It can only prevent injury, not cause it. Body armor is something you put on when you're determined there might be a risk to your life. And if you're carrying a gun you've already determined there might be a risk to your life.

Why would that be considered more threatening than carrying a gun? If you're really that concerned with how you might appear to the courts or you neighbors, then take only the body armor and leave the gun. The gun is what is threatening to others. I bet that would make a pretty good question for the judge by your lawyer in chambers. "Your honor, have you ever had reason to wear body armor in the course of your job? Were you planning on killing someone?"
 
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You know, when I bought my first vest, it wasn't for self defense purposes in the traditional sense. It was for personal safety. To this day, the only times that I have known people to point a gun at me other than at a gun show have all been at gun ranges. I figured body armor was a pretty good idea at that point. It wasn't that I was going to be defending myself against a bad guy, but maybe stopping a round from some idiot behind the line or several lanes down from me.

Think about it. For those of you who aren't cops and maybe even for those who are, where are you more likely to have a gun pointed at you by a stranger or a friend? Chances are, it is at the gun range and this seems to be reflected by numerous threads here and on other forums about unsafe behavior at gun ranges. I am surprised more people haven't considered body armor as safety gear for the range.

Even if you don't think you would ever have time to put it on in an emergency, you would have plenty of time to put it on before walking into your local range.

I have to admit that I don't wear mine too much anymore to the range. I built my own and nearly completely alleviated the problem.
 
^ Yep, it definitely would be.

My point is that purchasing extra body armor seems to be a bit much for just having around in general. I'd consider it a luxury. Granted, I'm not at a point in life where I have that much spending money.

To whom?
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It would blend in more plus mean that you only had to take one thing with you.

I was thinking you guys were talking about going about every day with an Kevlar vest on.
 
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I was thinking you guys were talking about going about every day with an Kevlar vest on.
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Gotcha. I think most of the thread has been concerned with using armor in a home defense scenario, but "out on the street" every day wear is also a viable consideration.

Actually, most armed professionals in business attire simply wear concealable soft armor (under the shirt or blouse). That's the beauty of modern armor...its easy to conceal. Certain companies do offer ballistic coats, fashionable vests, leather jackets, trench coats, etc. that do not look like armor. But, they tend to be really expensive compared to a soft concealment vest. Price of the armor package, plus the price of the fashionable materials, plus the price of uniquely boutique tailoring = $$$$.

BTW, I've routinely open carried a long gun in a lot of locales and never felt ridiculous while simultaneously wearing armor. Rather, the armor was somewhat comforting. On the other hand, what's normal for wear in Kabul, Sarajevo, Katrina New Orleans, or Baghdad might be considered a fashion faux pas in your town. :)

It just depends upon your particular situation (and the prevalent threat level for your location).

Put on a vest to help defend my family in my own house? Certainly.

Put on a vest to go shopping at Wal-Mart? Not very likely.

Wear a vest at local shooting range? Not a bad idea for safety. I've certainly worn one when I've run ranges or instructed firearms at work.

Wear a vest while protecting business or neighborhood during a disaster, looter, or riot situation? Absolutely.

Years ago I thought that the idea of wearing a protective helmet while riding a bicycle or snow skiing was a bit over the top. Now I wear them religiously. I've seen serious injuries and even fatalities that could have been prevented through wear of a crash helmet by a bicycle rider, motor cyclist, or skier. I've grown to appreciate the threat to my noggin and wonder why I ever thought safety helmets were silly.

The same calculus applies to body armor use. The question isn't whether or not it works (it does), but simply whether its use is applicable in your universe. If you seriously entertain the notion that you might someday be involved in a life and death struggle where firearms are present...armor is definitely an affordable and useful option.

Who knows? The $150 spent on a used vest just might turn out to be the wisest investment of your life.
 
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Ragnar Danneskjold said:
They give reporters in war zones body armor. They don't give them guns. Some meter maids wear body armor but don't carry. Judges have been given body armor during certain cases. Even criminals can wear armor during transport if there is a risk they might be harmed while in custody.

Body armor is passive. It is not threatening. It cannot hurt anyone. It can only save lives, not take them. It can only prevent injury, not cause it. Body armor is something you put on when you're determined there might be a risk to your life. And if you're carrying a gun you've already determined there might be a risk to your life.

Why would that be considered more threatening than carrying a gun? If you're really that concerned with how you might appear to the courts or you neighbors, then take only the body armor and leave the gun. The gun is what is threatening to others. I bet that would make a pretty good question for the judge by your lawyer in chambers. "Your honor, have you ever had reason to wear body armor in the course of your job? Were you planning on killing someone?"
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Dont forget EMT's and prison guards.... They consider stab proof body armor part of their uniform nowadays too.
 
I haven't bought any Kevlar in over 5 years, but a friend of mine works security and has been shot at. I was looking into gifting her a vest and noticed the prices have shot up. What was a $500 vest 5 years ago is over a $1,000 today. I hope I'm just not shopping deep enough and can get her a good level 2 vest at least for $500.....idk, maybe it isn't as feasible as I thot at the start of this thread and I'd buy ammo instead. I would have thought body armor would become more affordable not more expensive especially since there have been no improvements or new innovations. It's the same level 2 vest, but the price is two fold!
 
Chindo18Z said:
Gotcha. I think most of the thread has been concerned with using armor in a home defense scenario, but "out on the street" every day wear is also a viable consideration.

Actually, most armed professionals in business attire simply wear concealable soft armor (under the shirt or blouse). That's the beauty of modern armor...its easy to conceal. Certain companies do offer ballistic coats, fashionable vests, leather jackets, trench coats, etc. that do not look like armor. But, they tend to be really expensive compared to a soft concealment vest. Price of the armor package, plus the price of the fashionable materials, plus the price of uniquely boutique tailoring = $$$$.

BTW, I've routinely open carried a long gun in a lot of locales and never felt ridiculous while simultaneously wearing armor. Rather, the armor was somewhat comforting. On the other hand, what's normal for wear in Kabul, Sarajevo, Katrina New Orleans, or Baghdad might be considered a fashion faux pas in your town. :)

It just depends upon your particular situation (and the prevalent threat level for your location).

Put on a vest to help defend my family in my own house? Certainly.

Put on a vest to go shopping at Wal-Mart? Not very likely.

Wear a vest at local shooting range? Not a bad idea for safety. I've certainly worn one when I've run ranges or instructed firearms at work.

Wear a vest while protecting business or neighborhood during a disaster, looter, or riot situation? Absolutely.

...

Who knows? The $150 spent on a used vest just might turn out to be the wisest investment of your life.
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There were a couple of cold hunting seasons I wore one while guiding hunters. Not only kept me warm, just seemed reasonable. Especially since I have been shot with a 22 and nearly hit with a .45 hunting with others. Haven't worn it lately, but I did ban handguns at the blinds and became more selective in hunting buddy selection. Nobody knew I had it on tho, just like they didn't know whether I was boxers or briefs, it's purely personal choice.
 
A couple of random comments:

Wearing body armor when shopping at Wal-Mart may not be such a bad idea, there have been something like 7 murders at the local Wal-Mart in the town where I work in the last 10 or so year, most in the parking lot.

Cost going up, well everything is getting more expensive, plus I suspect part of it has to do with all the civilian contractors going over seas, plus the big Zylon recall a few years ago.....
 
I've got body armor for work but I don't keep it ready near the bed or anything. Mine is a Mayflower R&C low profile assault carrier. It is neither quick to put on nor quiet due to the massive amount of velcro involved. For me it's not really a consideration for home defense because a bad guy would easily make it all the way through my 1300 square foot house well before I could get it on. I suppose I could just drape it over me but that would hinder movement and whatever stealth I could muster at o'dark thirty.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
You know, when I bought my first vest, it wasn't for self defense purposes in the traditional sense. It was for personal safety. To this day, the only times that I have known people to point a gun at me other than at a gun show have all been at gun ranges. I figured body armor was a pretty good idea at that point. It wasn't that I was going to be defending myself against a bad guy, but maybe stopping a round from some idiot behind the line or several lanes down from me.

Think about it. For those of you who aren't cops and maybe even for those who are, where are you more likely to have a gun pointed at you by a stranger or a friend? Chances are, it is at the gun range and this seems to be reflected by numerous threads here and on other forums about unsafe behavior at gun ranges. I am surprised more people haven't considered body armor as safety gear for the range.

Even if you don't think you would ever have time to put it on in an emergency, you would have plenty of time to put it on before walking into your local range.

I have to admit that I don't wear mine too much anymore to the range. I built my own and nearly completely alleviated the problem.
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Funny you say that... In the army, they almost always make them wear armor at the ranges. Here it is kind of stupid though since they aren't wearing the plates and they are shooing 5.56. They'd make the POG's do that "up and downrange" stuff too, very strict. At an SDM school I taught at, we dropped that except for the training parts where you needed to "train as you fight".

I suppose where handguns are used it isn't such a bad idea... But for me, eye armor is much more important. I never shoot without it. My vests haven't been worn but once since getting out; after cleaning out the closet I tried it on just to see if it still fitted.

But after reading this thread, I figured it would be a good idea to store it under the bed where it is accessible (I have it so why not?) and it needs to kept flat and the wife wants more closet space, so it just works out.
 
LiquidTension said:
I've got body armor for work but I don't keep it ready near the bed or anything. Mine is a Mayflower R&C low profile assault carrier. It is neither quick to put on nor quiet due to the massive amount of velcro involved. For me it's not really a consideration for home defense because a bad guy would easily make it all the way through my 1300 square foot house well before I could get it on. I suppose I could just drape it over me but that would hinder movement and whatever stealth I could muster at o'dark thirty.
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Yeah, I agree, but keeping it under the bed is handy and for me I'm with you, I doubt I'd have time or want to invest the time given the situation if a bad guy is in the house. But I CAN give it to my wife and she can take the time to get it on while she hunkers down.

Like I said, I wouldn't go out and buy it, but if you already have it, why not?
 
My many years in the US Army and as a Law Enforcement officer has left me in posession of numerous soft ballistic vests and a couple of plate carriers with hard rifle plates. I have a vest with additional rifle plates in it, POLICE placards, Surefire 6P, ASP baton, cuffs, spare loaded pistol and rifle magazines attached that is close by as I sleep ready for a call out. I would absolutely NOT hesitate to throw that vest on prior to dealing with a home defense threat either....

Similar set up in my personal vehicle as well for off-duty if I have time to throw it on.

Why not!!!???

As a soldier and as an On-duty Law Enforcement Officer, I normally wore a ballistic vest prior to engaging in high risk operational environments....if there is time while reacting to a threat....why would I NOT want the same edge when protecting myself, friends and loved ones, or a member of the public!!!!?????

IMHO....not "over the top" at all....having firearms & training with them is not "over the top" so why would one more piece of tactical equipment designed to help you survive the defensive use of said firearm be " over the top?"
 
I've been seeing the PASGTs for $50 or less at all the fun shows. Super easy to put on, light, decent protection too. For the value, you can't go wrong. You can outfit the whole family for less than one set of soft IIA or an IBA or whatever.

The other thing I like about PASGTs is those are big ol' pieces of kevlar and if you need to stack them up or armor a position/vehicle they'd be great. Throw one over your car door, sit on one, put one over the back of the seat and you're basically immune to smaller stuff. You can throw them over the windows of your house and they'll stop (or at least slow down) incoming fire.

I just took this topic from home invasion to SHTF but, a similar situation could rear it's head if there's a riot or group of unruly folks in your neighborhood causing trouble. Throw the kids in the bathtub and cover 'em with PASGT vests while you cover the doors/windows, etc.

With a stack of "old" vests that nobody really wants anymore, you can make some really decent cover.
 
This is a word of warning for those of you like myself that decided to go out and and look for used vests on ebay, etc.

Bullet Proof (well resistant) vests are made out of a variety of materials, and in general are considered to have a 5 year service life, some of these materials are known to break down with exposure to heat and moisture. When buying a used vest the safest bet (not necessarily safe bet ) is to buy one made from WOVEN KEVLAR, test have shown these maintain there stregth the best of any of the common materials even when well worn and 10 or even 20 years old. What ever you do AVOID vests made with ZYLON, this material has been recalled and is responsible for multiple police officer deaths as it breaks down very quickly when exposed to humidity and heat, when new these were once considered the top of the line material in the 1990's and early 2000's as it was much lighter than Kevlar, model names often start with the letter Z, sometimes words like Platinum, or Lite will be in the model names. There are also some other materials to be concerned about when looking at a used vest with an unknown storage history, be ware of the spectrashield product family (shown to instantly break down if ever exposed to heat over 180 degrees F, like can be found in the trunk of a car), also delamination can occur with wear/heat exposure on any of the KEVLAR LAMINATES, sometimes listed as GoldFlex or other trade names.

To sum this up: when dealing with unknown history of vest
WOVEN KEVLAR best
Kevlar Laminates, and spectra products, dice roll,
Zylon BAD / at this age mostly likely USELESS

There is a lot more detailed information available online, google for it, A $50 Zylon vest on ebay is only good for paintball, if that much

Ike
 
Too me there is no question body armor is a good thing to have. I have front opening body armor set up with molle pouches and if I had to check on a bump in the night there is no question for me, it would be wore. It may make you look paranoid or stupid to people if they see it, but that is much better than actually being stupid by not wearing it when that bump in the night turns out to be a thief that is armed. I also own a MICH helmet, I would even wear it. It's better safe than sorry. Always store your body armor in a horizontal position, in a cool dry space. Though due to warranty they must put an expiration date on your armor, it will last much longer. If you bought it and didn't really wear and sweat in it too much, it should be as good as the day you bought it. I have only ever heard 3 arguments against not wearing body armor and they are as follows.

(1) It cost too much: This argument sais to me they wanted body armor, if not they probably wouldn't even be pricing it to begin with.

(2) It's too hot: Even Leo's who should be wearing it every day but may not, would defiantly wear it if they knew they were going on a call to an armed robbery or something like that.

(3) Weight versus mobility: This too an old soldier like me is the most ligitamant argument. Nobody can cover all threats, and there is a fine line between armor weight and mobility in tradeoffs. With soldiers already carrying up to 150 pounds of gear it really comes into play. Over on professionalsoldiers.com in this thread "http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14523" they discuse Dragon Skin. The point is made about how many magazines could be carried versus the 20 extra pounds for Dragon Skin. To me the weight has never been a real issue. I carried the M-60 for 8 years in the Army and what I noticed was this:

Training: The first year I carried the M-60 it was hard to keep up with those carrying M-16A2's. The second year not only could I keep up and move just as fast, but I could move even faster than they could. I noticed most people packed they're Alice pack's as light as possible. I never did this, I always packed to SOP and had an 80 pound ruck. Now here is the point. Training is key. Since I already was carrying normally for a good 6 months out of the year most of the weight I would if deployed, it was just another day at the office to me. If the company had of been deployed to a war zone, there would of been a good part of the company sucking so bad, but not me. Train like you fight is my motto. Sweat more now, bleed less latter. Get used to the weight and gear now, while it's easy to do so.

I know I am answering more than was asked, but that is just how I roll, lol.

TRADE OFF: In my opinion the weight versus mobility thing is the hard one. With this being said, I think if you're not going to cover your likely threats then why bother at all. Sure we can't really cover all threats no matter what armor we buy, but we can cover most threats and still have enough mobility. So here is my opinion on what to buy.

(1) Level 3A or 3 soft armor that opens from the front so you can get it on and off fast when needed, and be able to open the front to cool off some when possible. This would be the minimum I would use. This will cover 9mm and even some 44 magnum. "https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf" Here is a nice PDF everyone should read.

(2) Rifle plates: I would go with level 3 stand alone plates to be used in those SHTF situations, anything higher and it would be a bad trade off on weight versus armor, and price. Some plates weight more than others, and there are different materials. I like the Titanium plates, you can get these in 10x12 as light as 5.5 pounds, and you know they will take multiple hits. The spalling won't be an issue since you have soft armor behind it. They are only about 1/4 inch thick, versus 1 and 1/4 for ceramic. They are also better if you need to go concealed, much less bulky. Make sure and buy surface hardened plates if you go this route.

While a level 4 stand alone rifle plate would be nice, I don't think the loss of mobility, nor the extra high price is worth it. Anyway going this route will already put you in the top 10 percent of armor rating, most people will only have level 2 through 3a.
 
"As I mentioned earlier there are countless incidents in which people have successfully utilized a firearm in the home for defense. The same can't be said of body armor. I've already posted a link in which one can easily read hundreds, if not thousands, of actual accounts."

I imagine there is a very good reason for this, of all those incidents you mentioned, how many of those people were wearing body armor that got shot in a place the body armor covered? It stands to reason if most people don't wear body armor, then most people are not being protected by it. I haven't checked, but I will bet you will be hard pressed to find even one incident were people in this country who have bought fully functional NBC hardened fallout shelters were saved from a Nuke going off 20 miles away. Yet they most likely spent over sixty thousand on those. It's going to be kind of hard to prove the worth of one outside of thermo nuclear warfare, but to me that is not being paranoid, it's being prepared.

Let's talk about another form of protection, the Gas Mask. Most people who have those will never need them, but when it is needed it can't be used if you don't own it. A gas line could break in your neighborhood, the mask could save your life. I will wager you will have a hard time finding compiled incidents of a gas mask saving lives to the average home owner as well, but I can give you one example that did happen, and it happened to me.

One time I lived in a duplex my mother owned, she and my step father lived in side A, and I lived in side B. One night we had a fire, the dryer caught on fire in the basement. I was up and I woke them up and told them to get outside we had a fire downstairs. My step father is a Vietnam vet but him and my mother grab cloths and put those on the lawn, I grabbed guns and put those on the lawn. See the mind set difference? My thinking was if I am going to be homeless, I won't be defenseless as well. They could of grabbed guns too, sold one, and bought cloths easily. Back to the fire. I own an M-17 gas mask. I told my step dad to go down to the garage door and wait for me, and to have the water hose ready to put out the fire. I told him I was going down in that smoke filled basement and open that door. I put on my mask and I opened that door. I couldn't see a damn thing, but I knew where the button was to open the door so I used my sense of feel to find it.

Without the mask I would of never made it. I did open that door and we put out the fire ourselves. About 10 or 15 minutes later the fire department shows up and asked what happened. I tell them and they're response was: "You can't use a gas mask to do that, you need a mask like we have with oxygen." My response was: "Well I did use a gas mask and as you can see there was enough oxygen present that I pulled it off."

Now like those Fire Fighters some would say that wasn't a wise move. I say, I don't care what they think, and that I had it fully under control, and I knew fully well my chances of pulling it off were in the high 90's. I just needed a few seconds to complete my mission. I felt the door and it was not hot, so I opened it. When I did I quickly made my way to the button and pushed it. I did all of this on one breath I took just as I OPENED that door. I knew as long as I got the door open my step dad would save me if anything went wrong.

I did open that garage door. My step dad had hose in hand. I said cut the power to the house as he was about to spray the dryer. He cut the breaker box power which is by the garage doors. I opened the other garage door. He put out the fire, and the lesson was learned, the rest is history.
 
There are lots of things about general preparation, I keep a scuba tank connected to a regulator and a backpack on it in my house because of concerns over chemical spills, of course I live in town and my front door is less than 100 feet from the intersection of 2 federal highways and there is a railroad track less than 3 blocks away. 5 Minutes with some duct tape and heavy duty trash bags and I feel confident I could walk of of just about any "shelter in place" incident. Incidents do happen, we had one by my house just a couple of years ago, early one morning a tanker truck carrying some mildly nasty industrial chemical popped a safety valve and started spilling its load as they went around the corner on the highway by my house (going away from the house thankfully) It was a block or so before the load spilled to the pavement, and driver did not notice for about half a mile, all the people living and working along that section of highway and within about 200 yards on either side were evacuated during the cleanup that took about 18 hours, I did not have to evacuate (I did leave though as it was just about time for me and my wife to go to work), as the safe zone started at the intersection by my house, but it could have been a different matter if the truck turned the other way, or had been carrying nastier chemicals. As it was dozens of people were admitted to the local hospital, most were eating breakfast at Mc Donalds a couple of blocks down from my house.iin the spill zone, thankfully no serious injuries, just minor respiratory issues.
 
I imagine there is a very good reason for this, of all those incidents you mentioned, how many of those people were wearing body armor that got shot in a place the body armor covered? It stands to reason if most people don't wear body armor, then most people are not being protected by it. I haven't checked, but I will bet you will be hard pressed to find even one incident were people in this country who have bought fully functional NBC hardened fallout shelters were saved from a Nuke going off 20 miles away. Yet they most likely spent over sixty thousand on those. It's going to be kind of hard to prove the worth of one outside of thermo nuclear warfare, but to me that is not being paranoid, it's being prepared.
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If you looked through the incidents you would realize that practically none of the would be victims needed armor because they never got shot. In the vast majority of cases the assailants immediately fled upon being fired upon, hit or not. The point is comparing a gun for defending one's home to body armor is not valid because one been shown to be extremely useful time and time again but not the other. If you can at least find statistics of people who have been shot in their home center mass, with or without, then an arguement for it could be made.

Fallout shelters is a whole other scenario for numerous reasons. There really is no body of data in existence to determine purchasing one is a practical decision but for the vast majority of people i'm sure it was a matter of disposable income.


Let's talk about another form of protection, the Gas Mask. Most people who have those will never need them, but when it is needed it can't be used if you don't own it. A gas line could break in your neighborhood, the mask could save your life. I will wager you will have a hard time finding compiled incidents of a gas mask saving lives to the average home owner as well, but I can give you one example that did happen, and it happened to me.
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You won't because there are so few incidents in which one would need one. Natural gas quickly dissipates in an outdoor environment and brief exposures to even high levels are almost never fatal. The real danger comes from oxygen displacement in which case a gas mask will do nothing but hide the expression of your corpse's face. The fire dept was absolutely right. But if you calculate the odds of making it to be in the 90s and found it worthwile to take the risk why wouldn't the same apply to the odds of not needing a gun for the breif period of homelessness or even to the probability of not needing body armor? The chance of being shot in your own home by an intruder is so astronomically small so by that logic there is no need to have it.
 
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