I'm having a problem with the bolt closing down on a newly aquired used Rem 700 ADL in 25.06. The COL is under the max by .020 so i know the cartridge isn't to long. This is with my handloads as i haven't tried any factory loads yet. The bolt will slide just fine up to the cartridge but when you try to push the bolt down in the slot it's really tight and also when you try to bring it back up. The COL are the same on all these rounds but with a couple of the rounds you can't push the bolt down at all period. Could someone give a little insight as to what may be causing this? Thank You!
Bolt Closing Question
- Thread starter Guybo
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Just a wild idea, but take a look at shoulder length/position/angle on rounds that close vs rounds that don't.
Is your reloaded brass from THAT rifle, or some other rifle, i.e. "range brass"? Try a box of various brand new factory loads, too.
If you have a slide projector, set it up without any slides, and turn on the lamp. Stand up a round that closesd vs one that doesn't in front of the projector, to make yourself a quick and cheap "optical comparator".
By projecting those shadows on the wall, you can have a pretty good visual check on those rounds size & shape. (a reloader buddy showed me this trick...said he wasn't gonna spend $20,000 for a professional Optical Comparator)
Is your reloaded brass from THAT rifle, or some other rifle, i.e. "range brass"? Try a box of various brand new factory loads, too.
If you have a slide projector, set it up without any slides, and turn on the lamp. Stand up a round that closesd vs one that doesn't in front of the projector, to make yourself a quick and cheap "optical comparator".
By projecting those shadows on the wall, you can have a pretty good visual check on those rounds size & shape. (a reloader buddy showed me this trick...said he wasn't gonna spend $20,000 for a professional Optical Comparator)
Foghornl, Neat idea on the slide projector.
Guybo, first do get some factory ammo and make sure it fits, just to rule out some factory goof.
As to your reloads, are you full length resizing the cases? If not, you may need to. Also are you making cases out of .30-'06 cases? If so, necking down the brass leaves it thick at the neck and you need to ream the necks on the inside. Otherwise, the expander plug leaves the outside of the neck too thick and the finished round won't chamber. If it does, the neck will not have room to expand to release the bullet and the pressure will go sky high. This small area, often overlooked by reloaders, has been a major cause of high pressure problems over the years.
If you do not have a good reloading manual, please get one and read the general instructions, which should include the stuff I mentioned above.
Jim
Guybo, first do get some factory ammo and make sure it fits, just to rule out some factory goof.
As to your reloads, are you full length resizing the cases? If not, you may need to. Also are you making cases out of .30-'06 cases? If so, necking down the brass leaves it thick at the neck and you need to ream the necks on the inside. Otherwise, the expander plug leaves the outside of the neck too thick and the finished round won't chamber. If it does, the neck will not have room to expand to release the bullet and the pressure will go sky high. This small area, often overlooked by reloaders, has been a major cause of high pressure problems over the years.
If you do not have a good reloading manual, please get one and read the general instructions, which should include the stuff I mentioned above.
Jim
molonlabe
Member
FL resize the brass. If you are neck resizing this can only be done if you fired the case in that rifle.(form fired). The die should be lowered until it meets the shellholder then 1/8 of a turn more. You will feel the press cram. If that dosn't work the die could be bad.
Sunray
Member
"...die should be lowered until it meets the shellholder then 1/8 of a turn more..." Um, no. Set up the die so it just kisses the shell holder when tops out and tighten it. Then adjust the bullet seater to set your OAL. It could be the bullet on those cases is out a bit too far and is hitting the rifling.
Is this happening with brand new brass or once fired? New brass needs to be sized. I'd bet that the shoulders are a tick long. Mind you, As it's a used rifle, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the head space checked just to be sure. It's likely fine , but it won't cost much and then you'll know for sure it's the brass. Try a box of factory ammo and see if it does the same thing.
Is this happening with brand new brass or once fired? New brass needs to be sized. I'd bet that the shoulders are a tick long. Mind you, As it's a used rifle, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the head space checked just to be sure. It's likely fine , but it won't cost much and then you'll know for sure it's the brass. Try a box of factory ammo and see if it does the same thing.
molonlabe
Member
1/8 of a turn recommended by RCBS because tough mil spec brass may not go completely down to the shellholder. I have seen this with 7.62mm mil spec brass, then I took the advice packaged with the die. Other mfg's may not recommend this but RCBS does.
Link to RCBS FAQ page
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=7&s2=18&s3=132
Link to RCBS FAQ page
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=7&s2=18&s3=132
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Thanks for the replys. I went by yesterday and bought two different types of factory ammo and they chambered ok with the bolt closing like it should. I tried the reloads in another rifle and they chambered ok in that rifle. The brass i'm loading isn't virgin brass it's once or twice fired from another rifle i own. All the cases are trimmed to the correct length and i've measured and remeasured all the reloads and everything checks out ok. The bullet is .020 off the lands and i checked this with a stoney point oal gage. Some of the reloads will allow the bolt to close fairly easy but some make it hard to close like i described with a couple being really hard. I just can't figure out whats up unless the brass is bad. I'm using RCBS dies and following the manual instructions on setting them to a tee. I don't know if this means anything but I took the bolt out and there is small pieces of brass shavings in and around the bolt face. Also upon inspecting the brass there seems to be some excess markings on the brass where the bolt grabs hold. I'm going to get a gunsmith to check it out before i go any further and try to see if i can figure out whats going on. Again thanks!
Edward429451
member
This is the exact problem I'm having with my reloads, and in a (two) 700 ADLSY. The bolt closure problem is there but not as pronounced as the hard extraction after I managed to get it closed. These problem rounds work fine in an M1A, just not the 700.
I can't tell any difference in shoulder angle, and brass & OAL is within specs. Pretty weird. RCBS dies also.
Guybo, do you get very hard extraction of these problem rounds?
I can't tell any difference in shoulder angle, and brass & OAL is within specs. Pretty weird. RCBS dies also.
Guybo, do you get very hard extraction of these problem rounds?
Edward429451
member
I'd be very interested in knowing what he says is the problem. Please post back his findings so I can try and determine if I have the same problem, sounds like I do.
Thanks.
Thanks.
It sounds like you have the same type issue as me, although on the opposite end of the spectrum. I have a .308 700 Ti that the smith says is within SAAMI spec but that the chamber is a bit on the long side. He recommended neck sizing only after firing new brass one time. At that point, the brass is fire formed for that rifle, but it may not work in other rifles of the same caliber because the cases will be too long. Your trimming to correct length isn’t going to necessarily solve your issue, because all you’re doing is taking off brass from the mouth area, not affecting the remainder of the case that is going to affect fit in the chamber. If you want one size fits all ammo, full length size back to factory ammo specifications. Factory ammo has to fit in chambers meeting the minimum spec, so there is some slop if it’s put in a chamber that’s on the long side. It’s possible that this is not your problem so I would be interested in knowing what your smith says.
The excess markings on the brass could be a completely different issue, or it could be from the bolt shaving brass to close the bolt on the extra long cases. Bring some brass to your smith with info on the load used in the particular case and chronograph results, if you have it. I would fire some of the factory rounds as a control group, and examine that brass for comparison.
The excess markings on the brass could be a completely different issue, or it could be from the bolt shaving brass to close the bolt on the extra long cases. Bring some brass to your smith with info on the load used in the particular case and chronograph results, if you have it. I would fire some of the factory rounds as a control group, and examine that brass for comparison.
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Grump
Member
Here we witness the difference between case OAL and headspace on a non-rimmed cartridge.
Checked your reloads in a Wilson headspace gage yet? Pull the bullet from one of the trouble cases, smoke it with a candle flame, and then chamber it. The smudge-off will tell you where the tight spots are. I'm betting it's the shoulder of the case. There's a chance that your reloading die is too long or your rifle's chamber is too short. The tolerance slop between the two should NOT allow for an interference fit like you are experiencing.
Checked your reloads in a Wilson headspace gage yet? Pull the bullet from one of the trouble cases, smoke it with a candle flame, and then chamber it. The smudge-off will tell you where the tight spots are. I'm betting it's the shoulder of the case. There's a chance that your reloading die is too long or your rifle's chamber is too short. The tolerance slop between the two should NOT allow for an interference fit like you are experiencing.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Conventional dies can cause problems in two ways.
1. Because the case wall transmits the thrust as you force the case into the die, case walls can bulge -- this often happens when neck sizing only. The cure is to adjust the die to almost touch the shoulder, and to use a good lube.
2. On the down-stroke, the expander ball is pulled backwards through the neck. This can stretch the case, moving the shoulder slightly forward (and that's what may be happening in this case.) To cure this, a tiny bit of lube on the case mouth will ease the passage of the expander ball.
I like to lube with Ed's Red. I moisten a patch and lube each case as I pick it up. I press the case mouth into the patch, and that makes a real difference. You can feel it as you pull the case down out of the die.
1. Because the case wall transmits the thrust as you force the case into the die, case walls can bulge -- this often happens when neck sizing only. The cure is to adjust the die to almost touch the shoulder, and to use a good lube.
2. On the down-stroke, the expander ball is pulled backwards through the neck. This can stretch the case, moving the shoulder slightly forward (and that's what may be happening in this case.) To cure this, a tiny bit of lube on the case mouth will ease the passage of the expander ball.
I like to lube with Ed's Red. I moisten a patch and lube each case as I pick it up. I press the case mouth into the patch, and that makes a real difference. You can feel it as you pull the case down out of the die.
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